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Post by
Adamsm
thrall did not.*Buzzer sound* Wrong again. Every opponent that Thrall fought tried to kill him.
Thrall was part of a small underground ring, *Buzzer* Two wrongs in a row; Blackmoore had nobles from Lordaeron coming to watch and bet on Thrall.
Lo'Gosh fought in pretty much the "Big Leagues*Buzzer three* Strike three, you are out of here! Varian fought in 6 matches total over the course of a few weeks...Thrall fought in battle pretty much every single day for almost 10 years.
Thanks for playing, please re-read the lore.
Post by
Lordplatypus
*Buzzer sound* Wrong again. Every opponent that Thrall fought tried to kill him.
He lost and survived.
*Buzzer* Two wrongs in a row; Blackmoore had nobles from Lordaeron coming to watch and bet on Thrall.
Bet on him fight wild beasts and small-timers, was he in a massive collosieum? Were there ogres?
*Buzzer three* Strike three, you are out of here! Varian fought in 6 matches total over the course of a few weeks...Thrall fought in battle pretty much every single day for almost 10 years.
Once again, Varian fought in major battles, against trained gladiators.
Thrall fought what's basically fight club.
Post by
Adamsm
He lost and survived.After fighting 10 matches in a row, and the ogre he fought nearly killed him.
Bet on him fight wild beasts and small-timers, was he in a massive collosieum? Were there ogres?Yes he was in a massive coliseum; the Durnholde one was just as large as the Maul. And yes there were ogres.
Once again, Varian fought in major battles, against trained gladiators.
Thrall fought what's basically fight club.No, Varian fought dog meat and lesser ones till someone decided it was a good idea to put him up against the high rank team.
And Thrall's 'fight club' was again, every day of his life for 10 years, against a wide variety of opponents.
Trying to compare the one season that Varian was a gladiator against the 10 years of Thrall's is a futile effort. Yes, Varian did kick some ass...but since his story was just a badly washed version of Thrall's, it's to be expected.
Post by
Rankkor
Before we begin, I strongly encourage you to read the book before you try to make an argument. A lot of your points show that very obviously you're uninformed on what you're trying to debate.
He lost and survived.
He lost after TEN MATCHES IN A ROW. Was varian at any point forced to fight 10 matches in a row all by himself? no, all his fights were with a team, and he was allowed to rest after each one, in fact he fought for just one season during the course of 1 year. Whereas the orcs fought for 18 years. Also, Thrall was the exception, not the norm, Blackmoore wanted to keep him alive because he was secretly plotting to betray the alliance by using Thrall as a proxy warchief to lead the orcs into taking over lordaeron (He accomplished this mission on the alternate timeline seen in the book Twilight of the Aspects).
So while Thrall was kept alive, every other orc who fought, also did it to the death. Funny thing though, when they fought humans, they weren't allowed to kill them, and there were trained archers ready to leave them like pin cushions if they tried. Not that the humans weren't allowed to kill them though. Thrall exception non-withstanding.
Try again please.
Bet on him fight wild beasts and small-timers, was he in a massive collosieum? Were there ogres?
Read the book before saying things like this please. Yes there were ogres, more than one, and in a row, one after the other, with thrall forced to wear no armor, and just a buckler and a short sword, and alone. Varian was given not just armor, but THE armor, he was given the best gear money can buy, including legendary pieces like the belt of Lothar, he was allowed to fight with a team, and again, never to fight multiple fights in a row.
And yes there were massive coliseums. Dont let the size of Durnholde in the game fool you (villages in the game are not set to scale, Goldshire for example in the lore is a massive city with over 6000 citizens) it was a massive castle with a big colliseum where the orcs were forced to fight, ditto for the other concentration camps.
Once again, Varian fought in major battles, against trained gladiators.
No, Varian fought short matches against scrub teams of wanna-bes and when he gained prominence he was pitted against a blademaster and an ogre.
Thrall (and the orcs in general) were forced to fight trained and armed gladiators, beasts, ogres, and each other, all of it while completely unarmored and often unarmed too. In fact blackmoore loved to brag that his trained pet orc could fight a fully armored human knight, and defeat him despite the massive disadvantages.
Varian NEVER fought with any sort of handicap, it was always on even ground (equal number of foes, equal quality of gear, and no multiple matches in a row)
Please insert a coin and try again.
Post by
morginar
but since his story was just a badly washed version of Thrall's, it's to be expected.
No kidding. Varian's story is just a lighter version of Thralls.
But Sergant, Grommash and Taretha alone made the book beter than the comic. IMHO.
Post by
Rankkor
but since his story was just a badly washed version of Thrall's, it's to be expected.
No kidding. Varian's story is just a lighter version of Thralls.
Yeah they even added a blondie woman that died in his backstory to give him the tragic hero angle. Like we've never seen THAT before. Ugh.
The comics in general were just awful, both from a writing perspective (corny dialogs, plots that were either boring, or watered down versions of more interesting ones, Invincible heroes that never so much as get scratched, etc) and a lore perspective (they make a lot of continuity mistakes, and don't even adhere to the established personality of the characters).
And don't even get me started on the Me'dan comics. If that little spawn of satan shows his head on the game
I'M GONNA SERIOUSLY FLIP OUT!!!!!!!!!
*puffing smoke from the ears*
Post by
Stabhorn
Seriously; Med'an is so pointless and useless.
Post by
Snake387
First of all, I'd like to say that the only reason Varian was glorified and given rights was because he had the spirit of Lo'Gosh, a shamanistic spirit that the Tauren and Orcs both revere. That is why he was given top of the range armour, freedom to walk around and nice food.
Secondly, you seem to love mentioning the stonemason's to which I have one word to reply. Onyxia. She manipulated (like Black Dragons do) both the House of Nobles and the stonemasons so that an agreement couldn't be reached.
Post by
oneforthemoney
First of all, I'd like to say that the only reason Varian was glorified and given rights was because he had the spirit of Lo'Gosh, a shamanistic spirit that the Tauren and Orcs both revere. That is why he was given top of the range armour, freedom to walk around and nice food.
No, that was only given to him during the Crimson ring in Dire Maul when fighting the ogres, incidentally the last gladiator fight he participated in.
Post by
Rankkor
First of all, I'd like to say that the only reason Varian was glorified and given rights was because he had the spirit of Lo'Gosh, a shamanistic spirit that the Tauren and Orcs both revere. That is why he was given top of the range armour, freedom to walk around and nice food.
Wow, there are...........SO many things wrong in that single sentence.
A: Lo'gosh is not a "shamanistic spirit" he's an Ancient. An animal spirit like Malorne, Aessina, Cenarius, and so on. Nothing to do with the elements at all, and more revered by the druids than the shamans.
B:He had no such spirit, he simply was a good fighter and got a nickname. Goldrin/lo'gosh actually choosing him as an avatar didn't happened until the book Wolfheart, which was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY later.
C: All his liberties had nothing to do with that nickname. He was treated like a celebrity because that comic was a poorly written piece of trash that doesn't even knows how a "slave" is supposed to be treated. The whole gimmick of "Show, don't tell" badly applies to it, because too often it portrayed the 3 protagonists as "suffering" under their treatment as slaves, but we never actually saw them being mistreated, or even neglected, they were probably the most pampered slaves I've ever seen. For no apparent reason.
Secondly, you seem to love mentioning the stonemason's
O_o "I love"? I've only brought them up once.
to which I have one word to reply. Onyxia. She manipulated (like Black Dragons do) both the House of Nobles and the stonemasons
Nope. The alliance had no money, what little they had was hoarded by the House of Nobles, but even if the nobles wanted to give it out it was still not enough to cover the debts. The alliance was undergoing a major financial crisis after the war was over, many people objected or left the alliance due to the heavy taxes raised to both finance the building of Nethergarde, and the Draenor expedition. Then there was the colossal cost of rebuilding stormwind.
Onyxia rilled up the stonemasons to rebel and form the defias, while also manipulating the nobles to prevent them from placating the peolpe, and when Varian's wife died, also manipulated him to leave him apathetic to everything that happened in his kingdom, but the whole thing of the stonemasons not getting paid had nothing to do with her.
Post by
Snake387
A: Lo'gosh is not a "shamanistic spirit" he's an Ancient. An animal spirit like Malorne, Aessina, Cenarius, and so on. Nothing to do with the elements at all, and more revered by the druids than the shamans.
I was judging by the amount of wolf spells a shaman has and the fact that Goldrinn has a LOT to do with wolves.
C: All his liberties had nothing to do with that nickname. He was treated like a celebrity because that comic was a poorly written piece of trash that doesn't even knows how a "slave" is supposed to be treated. The whole gimmick of "Show, don't tell" badly applies to it, because too often it portrayed the 3 protagonists as "suffering" under their treatment as slaves, but we never actually saw them being mistreated, or even neglected, they were probably the most pampered slaves I've ever seen. For no apparent reason.
I don't understand if you're trying to say that Varian was a pampered slave for no reason or pointing out the flaws in the comic.
Onyxia rilled up the stonemasons to rebel and form the defias, while also manipulating the nobles to prevent them from placating the peolpe,
http://wowpedia.org/Onyxia#As_Katrana_Prestor
Post by
Lordplatypus
doesn't even knows how a "slave" is supposed to be treated.
He was treated exactly like a Roman Gladiator would have been. I do not kid.
Onyxia rilled up the stonemasons to rebel and form the defias, while also manipulating the nobles to prevent them from placating the peolpe, and when Varian's wife died, also manipulated him to leave him apathetic to everything that happened in his kingdom, but the whole thing of the stonemasons not getting paid had nothing to do with her.
She had manipulated the stonemasons to demand more than their original contract while at the same time manipulating to nobles to demand a lower fee.
The fact that tempers were raised that day, and simply the fact that both thought the other was completely unreasonable, was what happened.
Onyxia was behind it. Simple as that.
Post by
Rankkor
nah, the alliance was behind it and onyxia stirred the pot to make it go to blows. Not every stonemason followed her advice, and instead of going rebel, accepted a delayed payment from the government once they had more funds, and thus remained legit like
this guy.
Its been mentioned everywhere that the alliance's money had stretched too thin, with the funding of the expedition of draenor, the building of Nethergarde Keep (Which in the book Beyond the Dark Portal shows it pooled significant resources to build and staff) the building and maintenance of the concentration camps, the rebuilding of the affected lands, and other expenses. It didn't helped that one of the nations of the alliance decided to simply leave without contributing to the expenses (Gilneas) another one had no way to contribute because its corrupted king dilapidated its funds when he saw himself with a noose around his neck (Alterac) another nation flat out refused to pay anything (Quel'thalas) and another had a group of nobles dilapidating their funds as well (Stormwind)
All of those factors led to the alliance simply running out of money to pay the stonemasons right away, though the situation was still salvageable via future payments once the economy had recouped, but thanks to the intervention of onyxia to destabilize the kingdom, things came to blows before a more diplomatic solution could be achieved.
She was responsible of escalating the situation, but didn't started it.
Post by
Snake387
nah, the alliance was behind it and onyxia stirred the pot to make it go to blows.
Did you read the article? Sure, maybe the Alliance didn't have a lot of money but Onyxia outright stopped negotiations from occurring since she manipulated both sides so that they would never budge. If decent negotiations don't occur, you can't give away money or receive money. Thus, it wasn't the Alliance's fault.
Post by
Stabhorn
nah, the alliance was behind it and onyxia stirred the pot to make it go to blows.
Did you read the article? Sure, maybe the Alliance didn't have a lot of money but Onyxia outright stopped negotiations from occurring since she manipulated both sides so that they would never budge. If decent negotiations don't occur, you can't give away money or receive money. Thus, it wasn't the Alliance's fault.
Negotiations occurred, but do to Onyxia's manipulations, they failed.
Post by
Adamsm
nah, the alliance was behind it and onyxia stirred the pot to make it go to blows.
Did you read the article? Sure, maybe the Alliance didn't have a lot of money but Onyxia outright stopped negotiations from occurring since she manipulated both sides so that they would never budge. If decent negotiations don't occur, you can't give away money or receive money. Thus, it wasn't the Alliance's fault.
In that vein of thinking, it's not the Dark Horde's fault they invaded Azeroth.
Post by
Snake387
In that vein of thinking, it's not the Dark Horde's fault they invaded Azeroth.
But the Dark Horde never invaded Azeroth. They were just Orcs that hadn't been captured like the Dragonmaw and the weakened Blackrock Clan.
http://wowpedia.org/Dark_Horde#Defeat_of_the_Blackrock_clan
Post by
Skreeran
In that vein of thinking, it's not the Dark Horde's fault they invaded Azeroth.
But the Dark Horde never invaded Azeroth. They were just Orcs that hadn't been captured like the Dragonmaw and the weakened Blackrock Clan.
http://wowpedia.org/Dark_Horde#Defeat_of_the_Blackrock_clan
I believe he meant the Old Horde.
Post by
Snake387
I believe he meant the Old Horde.
Then yes, it isn't their fault (the ones that came from Draenor at least). But when Grommash Hellscream drank the demon blood a second time with the rest of the Warsong Clan? There's no excuse then.
Post by
Adamsm
I believe he meant the Old Horde.
Then yes, it isn't their fault (the ones that came from Draenor at least). But when Grommash Hellscream drank the demon blood a second time with the rest of the Warsong Clan? There's no excuse then.
Still not their fault in that mind set, since Grom took the blood a second time to help 'protect' his people from the ravages of the Night Elves and the Demi-God Cenarius.
My point is, the Council of Nobles have always been a bunch of @#$%s; Onyxia just played up their own selfish desires/thoughts, which is what caused them to renege on paying off the Stonemasons, touching off the riots and the death of the Queen of Stormwind.
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