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Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Metzen also said last blizzcon that quote "thrall is the clark kent of azeroth". So ya.....even his birth name, Go'el, is a direct reference to clark kent's birth name, Kal'el....., and my point? Superman is the flawless mary sue of all super heroes, overpowered to the max and has no character flaws. Thrall, like superman, is overpowered and has no real character flaws, because metzen apparently based him off of superman.
Rankorr, the fact that he is so extremely powerful and lacks any notable character flaws is what makes him a mary sue. "The elements favor so much that's why he's so powerful" well, I don't even know if that's true or not, but even if it is, that's still sue-ish. It doesn't matter why he is super overpowered, its THAT he is super overpowered.
what really ticks you is that he's an orc, not everything else.
I'd bet my account that if he was a worgen and alliance u'd be his number 1 fan.
And this has been the main purpose of him stepping down from the warchief path.
To humanize him
Thrall was "too perfect" before. Thinking about it, he was a great strategist a great fighter, the strongest shaman, never showed anger, never showed grudges, was willing to forgive everyone, and put the needs of everyone ahead of himself.
But now, we've seen that he actually holds more grudges than he lets on (against gul'dan for murdering his parents, against garrosh for killing cairne, against varian for declaring war against his people) we've seen that like any other real character he has doubts and fears, and he also has a wish-list.
And before ya go ranting off that he is overpowered ,take a good look at your own faction.
Malfurion= Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Rhonin = Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Varian = Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Thrall HAS tasted defeat before (need I remind you that Mannoroth kicked his ass in a single swipe?) and that makes him a much more realistic character than mister "ohh look at me and my split-personality, mega-armor magically produced out of nowhere, avatar of the demi-god, slayer of onyxia, mass butcher of orcs, without getting a single scratch" (and yes that was varian)
HE is the one who is a sue, since he's far stronger than he should be as a warrior, having inhuman strenght, speed, endurance, and aparently a talent for NEVER GETTING HIT ONCE.
Thrall on the other hand is NOT like superman who was able to wipe off badguys without a scratch. In his duel with blackmoore on Twilight of the Aspects he WAS wounded and nearly lost too, against Mannoroth he got his ass handed to him in a silver plate.
people like Rhonin, malfurion and SPECIALLY varian have been sui-fied WAY MORE than thrall.
because unlike thrall, not only they've never tasted bitter defeat, or have even been WOUNDED in battle, they've never shown any humanistic traits, like hesitations, doubts, fears, wishes, ect.
Varian got a bit of humanizing traits in Wolfheart, but he was made into an even more overpowered "god-avatar"
think again who you call a mary sue.
Post by
Patty
Sues don't
necessarily
have to be invincible.
Post by
Atik
Sues don't
necessarily
have to be invincible.
No, but their deaths will be some major, over-dramatized event.
Post by
Rankkor
Sues don't
necessarily
have to be invincible.
but they mostly are.
Defeats are an inevitable part of life, NOBODY can say they lived their life without tasting bitter defeat at least once.
therefore when in a work of fiction we see someone who NEVER loses, that someone becomes a
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InvincibleHero
This is why they added Kryptonite in superman, because the writers realized that by having a super hero that was invulnerable to all damage and basically was immortal and undefeatable, there was no drama, no tension, nothing to humanize said hero.
I can't have even an ounce of respect for varian untill he has his ASS kicked. MAJORLY.
Almost all lore figures at one point or another have been defeated at something, but mister magic-chin has to win EVERY SINGLE FIGHT he involves himself with. Stuff like numeric superiority, or other factors matter little. If varian is there, he wins.
and that marks him as a sue. I'll admit that wolfheart did a bit to humanize him, via his relationship with anduin. that boy is virtually the only redeeming mark varian has as a character.
Post by
Patty
Sues don't
necessarily
have to be invincible.
No, but their deaths will be some major, over-dramatized event.
And I'm sure if Thrall is ever killed off in canon, that will be the case. Basically, the main arguments for Thrall being a sue come down to the fact that Metzen himself has said that Thrall is his favourite character, he provides the voice, etc. His actions in Cataclysm, linked with his publicity everywhere else that Rank pointed out a few pages ago, haven't exactly helped things.
Post by
Rankkor
so because the creator of the game happens to have a favorite character automatically makes said character a bad one?
that doesn't really makes any sense.
and again as of his actions in cataclysm, they've been quite minimal, and I can safely say that malfurion and even garrosh have had more screen-time than thrall.
patty, name me how many times has he even been seen? 1 quest chain, 1 zone, and 2 very brief apereances in the maelstrom hardly mean he's been overused or shoved everywhere.
and judging for what we've seen in 4.3 Thrall is not even leading the charge against deathwing on wyrmrest temple, the dragon aspects are. And thrall is just another piece of the clock, as there's a combined army of alliance, horde, dragonkin, aspects, adventurers from both factions, all led by Alextrazsa.
Thrall doesn't get in the spotlight in these dungeons by soloing the bosses, or even hurting them as he takes a support role (dispelling curses, creating shields, and allowing us to jump into platforms.
I've asked multiple times WHAT has he done to gather so much hate and so far nobody has given me a straight answer other than "the elemental bonds quest was horrible"
yes I get it, it was a badly written quest, full of nothing more than ship-sinking and clishes, but 1 bad questchain hardly ruins a good character.
and considering malfurion shows up and does important stuff in darkshore, hyjal, molten front, and firelands, I'd say he's had more spotlight than thrall himself.
Post by
Atik
Personnally? I think most of the major lore characters are sues, with very few exceptions.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
well, by definition, a mary sue is a paragon of perfection, with zero flaws.
when it comes to combat, they never lose.
when it comes to personality everyone loves them, nobody hates them at all.
when it comes to inner flaws (Like hesitation, doubts, fears, phobias, emotional issues) they have none.
And yes, there are characters in warcraft that portray one or more of hte above traits.
but Thrall is not one of them.
as for trait 1, he's been wounded, and defeated multiple times, so he's far from invincible.
for trait 2, he's as much loved as he is hated, both within his faction as well as the oposite one.
for trait 3, we've seen that he does has inner flaws, such as fears, hesitations, and doubts, (main reason he chose to quit being warchief is because he was piss-off scared of not being able to pull the horde together in an open conflict with the alliance, hence why he worked for peace so hard)
Post by
Monday
malfurion ... had more screen-time than thrall.
LOL!
Rank, no offense, but I think you're trying too hard to defend Thrall, and specifically misinterpreting/ignoring parts of arguments. For example:
so because the creator of the game happens to have a favorite character automatically makes said character a bad one?
That is NOT what they're saying. Take a look at Patty's post. Sues don't
necessarily
have to be invincible.
No, but their deaths will be some major, over-dramatized event.
And I'm sure if Thrall is ever killed off in canon, that will be the case. Basically, the main arguments for Thrall being a sue come down to the fact that Metzen himself has said that Thrall is his favourite character, he provides the voice, etc. His actions in Cataclysm, linked with his publicity everywhere else that Rank pointed out a few pages ago, haven't exactly helped things.
This is what they mean. Thrall may not necessarily be a sue, but he's on his way.
And before ya go ranting off that he is overpowered ,take a good look at your own faction.
Malfurion= Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Rhonin = Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Varian = Invincible, never defeated in combat.
Thrall HAS tasted defeat before (need I remind you that Mannoroth kicked his ass in a single swipe?) and that makes him a much more realistic character than mister "ohh look at me and my split-personality, mega-armor magically produced out of nowhere, avatar of the demi-god, slayer of onyxia, mass butcher of orcs, without getting a single scratch" (and yes that was varian)
HE is the one who is a sue, since he's far stronger than he should be as a warrior, having inhuman strenght, speed, endurance, and aparently a talent for NEVER GETTING HIT ONCE.
So combat alone makes a sue? I won't argue that Rhonin is a sue, and even Malfurion to an extent. However, you're ignoring all the other aspects of a sue. If we were to say that being really good at fighting alone makes a sue, then we could claim that:
Master Chief is a sue
Mario is a sue
Link is a sue
Samus is a sue
etc, etc.
Every character has some flaws. Malfurion, for example, seems to hold grudges (won't believe Illidan was trying to help, even though he was, then exiled him because screw you), Varian has major anger issues and acts like a $%^&*! for all of Wrath. Just because he can swordfight really well doesn't make him a sue, or else we could claim that every Jedi in existence is a sue.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
He's not some invincible god-mode uber being
I'll give you 1000g for every defeat varian has recieved in actual combat that you can name.
@funden take a look at my other post where I listed some of the more common traits of a mary sue (being invincible is just 1 of many)
that part of my post you quoted was in response to sold who was calling thrall "invincible" when in reality several more alliance characters have been invincible in the past, whereas thrall has been both wounded and defeated multiple times in the past.
some characters of wow display all of those traits, some display a few, Thrall displays none.
Post by
Monday
some characters of wow display all of those traits, some display a few, Thrall displays none.
But those aren't the
only
qualifiers for being a sue. Some sues are hurt often, it just draws others into them, etc. There are many more sue traits, and Thrall exhibits quite a few of those.
Post by
Atik
Such as the fact everyone either loves Thrall, or wants his head on a pike.
Including the Old Gods, Infinite Dragonkin, and Deathwing. Imagine having a personnal vendetta against a fly....
Post by
Rankkor
some characters of wow display all of those traits, some display a few, Thrall displays none.
But those aren't the
only
qualifiers for being a sue. Some sues are hurt often, it just draws others into them, etc. There are many more sue traits, and Thrall exhibits quite a few of those.
you
could
be right (even an old man can admit he doesn't know everything) but its hard to go against your gut.
As far as being shoved down our throats, having spot-light time, and being glorified, there are worst offenders than thrall ( and I'm not saying that Thrall is flying under the radar, just that others are highlighed more intensively than him)
simple as that.
Post by
Monday
And I'm not arguing that he's a sue. However, you may or may not be blind to his "flaws" as a character (and not character flaws, but bad writing flaws).
Post by
Rankkor
And I'm not arguing that he's a sue. However, you may or may not be blind to his "flaws" as a character (and not character flaws, but
bad writing flaws
).
THIS I wont deny.
seriously, while it has THE BEST music in the game, the elemental bonds quest could posibly be the worst-written quest in the whole game. It even made me hate aggra more than before (and considering she sank my favorite ship, I hated her enough already)
I liked the parts where thrall expressed his inner rage, fears, and doubts, but the rest of the quest was terribly clished, and even the plot-device that kicked off everything was left hanging.
Thrall's "tender" scenes in both the shattering and TOTA (lets refer to the twilight of the aspects book as this from now on :P) were horrible (showing that while golden is a great writer, she STINKS at writing convincing romance)
but as a character I still believe he is far from being a mary sue, and I specially believe that he's neither being shoved, overused, or stealing the spot-light of others, as many times before, other NPCs have been broad-casted everywhere, with more emphasis, and with more frequency. (Varian, garrosh, malfurion, and sylvannas come to mind)
Post by
Adamsm
Malfurion= Invincible, never defeated in combat.Actually, Mal has been defeated quite a bit over the years after all.
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