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Post by
Rankkor
Meh, I just found warrior-shaman thrall much more interesting and believable than the new mary sue god-mode thrall, I know he was powerful before, but he was never super god mode powerful. He was more a warrior than a shaman, and his powers were strong but not over the top mary sue type that he is now.
ok you gotta start justifying your arguments, what exactly has Thrall done recently for you to brand him a god-mode mary sue? has he soloed a major lore figure that should be way ahead of him? no.
Has he done anything combat-related? no.
What exactly has he done to be called a mary sue? >=( answer me!
>.<
Now he's become orc-messiah world-shaman uber powerful god mode shaman.
and knock it off with the "uber powerful god mode shaman" crap, ok? I've already told you multiple times before, that they've actually TONED DOWN his shamanistic powers, given that in the past he demolished a castle, 1shoted a necropolis, and obliterated AN ARMY by himself BEFORE cataclysm hit.
After cataclysm, he's spends more time talking and less time fighting. Even on the 5mans and raids he takes a SUPPORT role, rather than a combat one.
so knock it off, k?
The truth is, metzen gave him an asspull powerboost in cataclysm, he went from powerful warrior-shaman to TEH WORLD SHAMAN ORC MESSIAH in the blink of an eye, because he's metzen's mary sue.
and I'm asuming you got flamming proof of this, correct? everything he's done so far, has been done in the past by other characters. If anyone is getting sue-ified is Varian, what with being the avatar of a demi-god, besting the leader of the horde in 1-on-1, not getting his ass kicked once (thrall HAS been defeated in the past, I've yet to see varian lose a fight)
who's the REAL mary sue here? huh?
I think this expansion would've been more interesting and better written if it didn't seem like the hero of the expansion is just going to go and one shot the bad guy with his super god mode super saiyan powers, if he was still just plain strong warrior-shaman thrall.
again, he's not 1shotting anyone by himself, he is taking a SUPPORT role in battle, just as each of the dragon aspects also take a support role. Tirion on the other hand 1shoted the FUÇKING FROSTMOURNE and delivered the lich king to his knees alone.
I think what YOU would had wanted is if someone from the ALLIANCE (or better yet, a worgen) did everything Thrall has done.
Lothar was the main protagonist back on warcraft 1 and 2 and everyone was fine with it, Arthas was the main protagonist/antagonist in Warcraft 3 and frozen throne and everyone was fine with it, Varian was the protagonist of his own comic where he acted like a completely god-mode mary sue defeating EVERYONE and NOT GETTING A SINGLE SCRATCH and everyone was fine with it, Tirion was the main honcho on WOTLK and everyone was fine with it.
Let an orc get some recognition and the hypocrisy starts to reek like my toilet after i've eaten beans.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I could complete at least 3/4 zones in Northrend without Tirion being mentioned once. He had his time in the spotlight and he did a darn good hero's job being amazing and our front commander on the field of Icecrown.
that's funny because I was able to do 3/5 zones in cata without having thrall mentioned at all. He's shown up in the goblin starting zone, a BRIEF presence in the maelstrom before entering deepholm, another BRIEF presence in a non-canon (due to being a nightmare) sequence in the twilight highlands, and a quest-chain in hyjal.
after that? he shows up in 1 dungeon and 1 raid.
you call that "shoved down our throats"? because I can name you at least 4 other people who've been shoved harder than Thrall.
Edit: and if we're talking about the books:
A: the shattering wasn't exclusively about Thrall, it was 1/3 about anduin and the whole plot in ironforge with moira, magni turning into stone, the whole coup thingie with the dark irons, ect, 1/3 about Baine, and the whole coup pulled by magatha, and all that, and 1/3 about Thrall. To say that that book was all about him would be a gross exageration, as it was just as much about anduin and baine as it was about him.
and B: yes Twilight of the Aspects was all about Thrall, but then, most major lore characters get a whole full book dedicated about them when THEY are glorified to really huge heights. For Thrall it was Twilight of the Aspects, for Varian it was Wolfheart, for Malfurion it was Stormrage, for Rhonin it was Day of the Dragon, for Med'an was the last season of the comics.
come on, books always put someone on the spotlight, what I find funny is how loud the complaints are when a HORDE character gets a book about him or her, but hey, an alliance character (Rhonin, Malfurion, Varian, Jaina) gets a book dedicated to them and all is peachy.
Post by
Monday
I could complete at least 3/4 zones in Northrend without Tirion being mentioned once. He had his time in the spotlight and he did a darn good hero's job being amazing and our front commander on the field of Icecrown.
that's funny because I was able to do 3/5 zones in cata without having thrall mentioned at all. He's shown up in the goblin starting zone, a BRIEF presence in the maelstrom before entering deepholm, another BRIEF presence in a non-canon (due to being a nightmare) sequence in the twilight highlands, and a quest-chain in hyjal.
after that? he shows up in 1 dungeon and 1 raid.
you call that "shoved down our throats"? because I can name you at least 4 other people who've been shoved harder than Thrall.
And that Hyjal quest chain. Woo for the worst love story ever!
And yeah, I think Thrall is overused this expansion as well.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I could complete at least 3/4 zones in Northrend without Tirion being mentioned once. He had his time in the spotlight and he did a darn good hero's job being amazing and our front commander on the field of Icecrown.
that's funny because I was able to do 3/5 zones in cata without having thrall mentioned at all. He's shown up in the goblin starting zone, a BRIEF presence in the maelstrom before entering deepholm, another BRIEF presence in a non-canon (due to being a nightmare) sequence in the twilight highlands, and a quest-chain in hyjal.
after that? he shows up in 1 dungeon and 1 raid.
you call that "shoved down our throats"? because I can name you at least 4 other people who've been shoved harder than Thrall.
And that Hyjal quest chain. Woo for the worst love story ever!
And yeah, I think Thrall is overused this expansion as well.
again WHY? his ingame appereances have been quite minimal compared to other characters.
Yes he had a quest-chain dedicated to him in hyjal, so what? Tirion had a quest-chain dedicated to him on vanilla, (granted, I admit that the elemental bonds quest was poorly written, but my point stands, its just 1 QUEST CHAIN)
apart from that quest chain, how many times has he even been mentioned? goblin starting zone, 1 VERY SMALL role in the pre-deepholm quest, 1 VERY SMALL (non-canon due to being a nightmare) role in twilight highlands, 1 SUPPORT role in a dungeon and 1 SUPPORT role in a raid.
(/sarcasm) OHH YHEA, HE'S EVERYWHERE, EVEN IN THE SOUP (/sarcasm)
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
I think what is being reffered to is that he seems to be being pushed as the "one man to save the universe" instead of just a fighter or leader of fighters like Tirion and the others were.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Behelich
'sides, it's stated outright that in the alternate universe without Thrall to save everyone everything goes to hell.
Post by
Rankkor
Just because you like thrall doesn't mean he's not overused. Like, he, a SHAMAN went to hyjal to help restore nordrassil, when he should've stayed the hell out and left it to malfurion, then he gets his soul seperated into 4 parts, and after reviving thrall, the quest chain ends with thrall and aggra marrying at the spot where they were SUPPOSED to restore nordrassil. And then they don't restore nordrassil, it just ends with thrall and aggra marrying.
Seriously, what the hell. Thrall, a shaman, is somehow (yet never explained why) needed to help restore nordrassil, then the quest chain ends with it not even being restored, and said shaman Thrall just marrying his girlfriend, like anyone gives a damn. Then didn't even restore the tree, what was the point of that quest chain?
maybe you dont get the definition of "overused"
Overused: used too much.
as bad as the quest-chain in hyjal was, it was just
1 QUEST-CHAIN
just ONE.
Thrall is neither the first, nor the last lore character to get a full quest-chain devoted to him, as Garrosh had one in nagrand, Crusader Brindenbrad had one in icecrown, Zaela had one in twilight highlands, and a rather large list of ect.
lets pretend for 1 second that quest doesnt exist. What then? how many times has he actually showed up? as I've said several times before, just the goblin zone, and the maelstrom.
Even then, he's never "saving the day by himself". On the maelstrom he's along several major earthen ring members (including nobundo), and on the raid there's the aspects lending their aid as well, so he's never saving the world ALONE, like tirion was. Since Tirion aparently decided to ditch darion and just go wage a war against the scourge by himself and won.
This isn't a matter of liking him or not, this is a mathematical matter, use your fingers and count how many times has he showed up in cataclysm, and the number that will come out of that equation is a very VERY small number.
besides you haven't yet answered why do you say he's now a "overpowered god mode shaman" when actually his shamanism has been toned down in this expansion.
Post by
Falrinn
I could complete at least 3/4 zones in Northrend without Tirion being mentioned once. He had his time in the spotlight and he did a darn good hero's job being amazing and our front commander on the field of Icecrown.
that's funny because I was able to do 3/5 zones in cata without having thrall mentioned at all. He's shown up in the goblin starting zone, a BRIEF presence in the maelstrom before entering deepholm, another BRIEF presence in a non-canon (due to being a nightmare) sequence in the twilight highlands, and a quest-chain in hyjal.
after that? he shows up in 1 dungeon and 1 raid.
you call that "shoved down our throats"? because I can name you at least 4 other people who've been shoved harder than Thrall.
I admit it's kind of amusing for Thrall to be such a big element in the lore of Cataclysm, yet only played a significant role in the Goblin starting area upon release. Going just off the stuff in game, someone who was uninformed about the lore probably wouldn't of realized Thrall is supposed to be the main protagonist of the expansion until 4.2 was released with the Elemental Bonds questline.
Heck, prior to 4.2, recent but very fundamental aspects of his character (such as his relationship with Aggra) were never mentioned in game.
On the topic of Thrall in general, I think it's pretty likely he'll be Warchief again in Expansion 4. Garrosh has been a dividing force in the Horde since he took the position. The close unity of the Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren used to be one of the faction's defining features, and now it's completely non-existent. Vol'jin has worked more closely with the Blood Elves and the Alliance then he's worked with Garrosh. The Tauren are only really sticking around because they feel it'll be easier to set the Horde back on the right path if they are still members.
Thrall can reunite the Horde. And by applying lessons learned over the course of Cataclysm, he can make the faction stronger and more united then it was before he left.
Post by
Rankkor
I think what is being reffered to is that he seems to be being pushed as the "one man to save the universe" instead of just a fighter or leader of fighters like Tirion and the others were.
Morec sums it perfectly.
I never thought like Tirion was there to save the world or whatever. He was one guy with a really awesome sword that was leading the charge against the Lich King. If he died, someone else would have taken his place and we would've cried, but it wouldn't have been all like "WORLDAPOCALPYSEOMG"
ya know, this sounds familiar.................
where have I heard this?
ohhh that's right (/snaps fingers)
Nozdormu showing krasus the image of someone who is VITAL to the survival of the world, and should that man fall, all of azeroth would fall with him
who was that man? malfurion stormrage.
He had the same messianic role as Thrall did on War of the Ancients, pretty much the entire legion invasion was ruined due to him and him alone, as he was the one key in everything and should he had died, everyone else would had lost.
the armies, the dragons, they were just background noise for Malfurion.
But hey, he's an elf, so its ok.
Now that its the time for an orc to get the same treatment, lets all shout and complain that he's a mary sue, overused, and so on.
I admit it's kind of amusing for Thrall to be such a big element in the lore of Cataclysm, yet only played a significant role in the Goblin starting area upon release. Going just off the stuff in game, someone who was uninformed about the lore probably wouldn't of realized Thrall is supposed to be the main protagonist of the expansion until 4.2 was released with the Elemental Bonds questline.
my point exactly.
Thrall recieved a lot of attention from the Twilight of the Aspects book, but his actual in-game impact (the one that matters) has been VERY VERY SMALL. In fact, its safe to say that malfurion has had more of an impact in the game so far, as he's showed up in 3 zones and 1 raid (and in this raid he doesn't have a support role, he actually aids in the fight properly, not to metion that he kicks the ass of an elemental lord twice in a row)
Yes, the elemental bonds questline was HORRIBLE (basically, pure ship-sinking by pegging thrall to aggra in the most clished way posible, they didn't even bothered to solve the plot-device that brought everyone to hyjal in the first place) but its just 1 quest chain.
having 1 atrocious quest-chain doesn't make a character a mary sue, or overused, or anything of the sort.
Heck, prior to 4.2, recent but very fundamental aspects of his character (such as his relationship with Aggra) were never mentioned in game.
hear hear!
its amazing how many complaints can come up due to 1 book and 1 quest-chain isn't it? I hadn't heard all this ruckus against thrall before 4.2 hit the shelves.
On the topic of Thrall in general, I think it's pretty likely he'll be Warchief again in Expansion 4. Garrosh has been a dividing force in the Horde since he took the position. The close unity of the Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren used to be one of the faction's defining features, and now it's completely non-existent. Vol'jin has worked more closely with the Blood Elves and the Alliance then he's worked with Garrosh. The Tauren are only really sticking around because they feel it'll be easier to set the Horde back on the right path if they are still members.
Thrall can reunite the Horde. And by applying lessons learned over the course of Cataclysm, he can make the faction stronger and more united then it was before he left.
amen.
I honestly dont get what the hell they were trying to pull by getting thrall away from the horde in the first place. All his character development (or derailment depending on your view) could had easily taken place without having him leave the horde. Varian was able to get some character development without leaving the alliance.
Post by
Behelich
ya know, this sounds familiar.................
where have I heard this?
ohhh that's right (/snaps fingers)
Nozdormu showing krasus the image of someone who is VITAL to the survival of the world, and should that man fall, all of azeroth would fall with him
who was that man? malfurion stormrage.
He had the same messianic role as Thrall did on War of the Ancients, pretty much the entire legion invasion was ruined due to him and him alone, as he was the one key in everything and should he had died, everyone else would had lost.
the armies, the dragons, they were just background noise for Malfurion.
But hey, he's an elf, so its ok.
Now that its the time for an orc to get the same treatment, lets all shout and complain that he's a mary sue, overused, and so on.
You do realize that many people consider Mal to be insufferable as well, right? And not only Illidan sympathizers, mind you.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
You do realize that many people consider Mal to be insufferable as well, right? And not only Illidan sympathizers, mind you.
first time I hear of that.
I've never heard anyone complaining about malfurion EVER. Not on Warcraft 3, nor on War of the ancients, much less on world of warcraft where everyone was jumping like a teen girl about to go to prom when they announced he was returning.
Post by
Behelich
That everyone certainly doesn't include me. I liked him better when he was asleep. And that 'stuck-between-shapeshifting-forms' model doesn't help us to like him at all.
Post by
Rankkor
Exactly! I don't care beans about Malfurion, Night elf or no, because suddenly he returns to the night elf society, males are equal in society, and Tyrande hands leadership over to him while becoming a pansy.
Yes.
I hate him too.
first time I hear of that.
but lets be honest here, Tyrande (along with every single night-elf female, and ALL FEMALES IN GENERAL on the warcraft franchise) have been subjected to one of the WORST cases of chickification I've ever seen.
Night elf women back in warcraft 3 were BRUTAL, almost orc-brutal (they were worthy oponents to the WARSONG clan, the ones who's national hymn may as well be reciting the names of every kill they've ever made).
cue world of warcraft, and suddenly all of them ALL OF THEM are damsels in distress too afraid to punch someone since that'd break their fingernails.
I don't even wanna start on the crap treatment they've given jaina, who used to be known as the greatest mage alive, and used to be one of the most badass protagonists of warcraft 3, reduced to nanny and cheerleader in wow. (I litteraly cringed and felt sick when i saw her only role in ICC, where she only shows up to trow up the most pathetic line in this entire game)
Post by
Behelich
Our hope lies within Golden and her Jaina novel.
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