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Varian Thread
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Post by
Dralas
Sad thing is - The grudges already exist. They seem to find a way of seeping into every single discussion thread.
Unfortunately yes, you're right. Though I do not hold any personal grudges with anyone, I have had my fair share of arguements. A good example would be Taurenmoo, I've fought with him a few times, both heated debates, but I don't hold anything past that.
I ask all that may post in this thread to be more civilized and act a bit more mature.
Post by
437763
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Post by
Adamsm
Heh, that's why I created it.
Post by
437763
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Post by
Rankkor
Yeh, I dislike Varian's genocidal approach, but I can see why he feels the way he does - He's just a bit overzealous and over the top. Arthas, Take #2, perhaps?
I also personally believe his son is a more adequate leader :(
I agree with you there, his son is actually quite mature for his age if I'm not mistaken, varian didn't wanted to go to theramoore untill both jaina and his son were able to convince him (and his son's word was the most influent there, for all his flaws i must admit varian does loves his son quite a lot, and I find that nice ^^ )
I could see both varian and garrosh getting killed, not at war with each other, but rather agaisnt a common foe (maybe deathwing) and then varian's son takes the leadership of stormwind once more, despite the extreme few amount of lore regarding anduin I really like that kiddo.
varian's hate steems mostly because of garona, she killed his father, and he just can't let go of that, but like I said before, while hating garona is understandable, using her as a role-model to compare her to the rest of the orcs is not.
after all, thrall didn't used blackmoore as a role-model to compare the rest of the humans, and no real wise leader would use the actions of 1, to judge the behavior of many.
that would be as stupid and unfair as saying that all the plp of the middle-east are terrorist (and they are not, only a small minority of like 1% of the population has radicalistic beliefs, and here in america we have the same problems)
this is why I ask those who suport varian with such fervor, to point out WHY did it look like the horde sent garona.
just because she was an orc doens't mean she was sent by the horde, since allmost all the "major bad-guy" henchmen corporation on wow has humans and orcs on their ranks.
and again a few examples are the cult of the dammed, the twillign hammer sect, the wyrmcult, and the shadow council.
the reason I like anduin more than varian, is because the boy does makes use of reason, and logic, he actually stops to think, and for his age he's really mature, i can see that the humans would be WAY better off being led by anduin than by his hot-headed father.
Post by
389776
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Post by
Rankkor
that would be as stupid and unfair as saying that all the plp of the middle-east are terrorist (and they are not, only a small minority of like 1% of the population has radicalistic beliefs, and here in america we have the same problems)
lol i think i used almost this same line bout a month back =}
great minds think alike
Post by
Adamsm
Alright, so I know this goes back to something from a few days ago, but I've been re-reading the Legends manga's(volume 3 story 2: Crusader's Blood) and I found something that is pretty typical for the Scarlet's in it:
A young blood elf delivers a gemstone to a "young" Forsaken, neither of them are attacking anyone, and the two are captured by a squad of Crusader's lead by Captain Lauer.
"My name is Captain Lauer. The Two of you are in the hands of the Scarlet Crusade now. Your are both Abominations..... and have been sentenced to death. Have you any last words before we cleanse the land of your non-human stench?"
The Forsaken woman answers: Do your worst woman! I'll not be forgotten, I promise you that!
Lauer again: Very well. *Shoots the forsaken woman in the head with a crossbow. Turns to the blood elf youngster* Nothing at all from you then? Good. *shoots him as well*
Her nephew, who serves under command, asks: It's just... the blood elf and the forsaken... They had caused us no harm. We have no reason to believe they'd caused anyone harm.... *He trails off and Lauer answers him* Now, you know better then that. Their very existence is Anathema to us. *To which he replies* Yes I know, but I.... what if their point of view is just as valid? What if, from their perspective, We're the Villains?
Lauer: The answer to that is simple nephew.... They're Wrong.
Then later in the story:
The Nephew again: I've been thinking about what you said before.... About how we're right -- and everyone else is wrong. Lauer: Yes? And have you come to any conclusions? Nephew: Well it's just... what if we're the ones who are wrong? What if we're not doing holy work... And the only thing violence is going to get us is just more violence?
Lauer: We're right because we have faith. And the more time you spend with us... the more you the wretchedness and depravity the rest of Azeroth has to offer.... The sooner you'll see things our way. The Right Way.
It was said earlier that the Crusade's main corruption was due to the demons, but it seems more like they themselves are trying to brainwash those who serve with them into making sure that everyone believes as they commander's do, no matter what the evidence says to the contrary.... which can actually parallel some of the way Varian thinks.
Post by
437763
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Post by
Rankkor
But I agree, the Scarlet Crusades' way of thinking has some paralells to Varian and Garrosh's trains of thought
actually garrosh is way worst than varian in my eyes.
at least varian puts up a lame sad excuse for his violence, and some watered down background that elaborates the reason behind his violence and angerness.
but with garrosh no such thing is offered, he went from the depresed emo orc on nagrand, suicidal from the dishonor his father caused him, to this warmonger idiot who hates the alliance, despite the fact that he never had any direct contact with them during most of his life.
no background for his hate has been established, and even garrosh himself offers no excuse or reason for his hate to the humans.
that's why I hate garrosh, and only dislike varian.
if, someone asked varian "why are the orcs evil?" varian would rant and give this long speech about how they are savage animals who deserve to die, who are treacherous and blah-blah-blah
but if someone asks garrosh "why are the humans evil?" garrosh would say: Well because........... arg don't ask stupid questions, they just are.
Post by
437763
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Post by
taurenmoo812
I agree with you both on these two. Esspeically you Rankkor on Garrosh being worse then Varian. It is true well I can't stand Varian, Garrosh has become far worse.
And yet I can't help but thinking this was all set up in terms of plot, and Garrosh Made this way by the writers, to serve purely as a counterpoint to Varians agression towards the horde, that blizzard decided to make Varian into an orc hating warmonger, and so they needed someone of the horde side to stand for that agression. Certainly Thrall could not be that for being who he is.. so they invented Garrosh just for this reason.
The only reason Garrosh is a $%^&*!bag is because Varian is too, its that simple. But obviously blizzard gave more story and reason for Varian to hate orcs then Garrosh to hate humans, which is just fail on there parts.
The new horde has worked and struggled to regain there lost dignity and spirituality, and now having done so with Thrall, Garrosh is set to break that again with the empty promise of bloodshed. Even a vet like Saurfang knows how foolish it is to follow that path.
Post by
451455
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Varian- A little in-your-face, but he is probobly going to be here for years to come, and if he is going to be the "kick-ass human who will make up for all the heros who are dead, old, or super-villans", then he is probobly going to do somthing great before that happens. And we just got done being ruled by someone who cant be attacked ffs.
A little in your face? Are you serious? At every event after the theramore meeting in lore he's become the first to provoke a fight with anyone.
Jaina- I was suprised she was not listed as a character for Catalysm, so she might die in WotLK... either that or Greymane suceded her as Varan's second in command.
Nothing even hitting on her dying in wotlk, since the facts have been none discreet it doesn't say what she's doing, anymore then her absense. If they gave out all the facts there wouldn't be a story to come.
Thrall- Sadley his death his being hinted every where you turn (I personaly hope he does not die.), with Garrosh saying what warchiefs should do hints that he is planning to take over Thrall some day, and Metzen giving a speech on what things would be like if Thrall was not here hints it further...
Its strange seeing you say you hope he doesn't die, given the flaming of him on other posts. But you mentioning Metzen you seem to forget one important fact about him. Metzen is a huge fan of Thrall, and isn't going to write him off. More then likely the plot will have him absent for time in the story, giving Garrosh time to take leadership to an extreme, and leading to events like the retaking of undercity.
Garrosh- As much as you all want him to die, I dont think it will happen. This guy seems to be the least popular of the four, and his role has not been said yet. I think its just someone to keep Thrall more busy. But being warchief is unlikley, Blizzard might just want us to think that.
So your saying you think Thrall is more likely to die, who is the most popular on your list, but Garrosh is the least likely to do because people dislike him the most? Again I your logic seems somewhat twisted here.
This is less about concerning facts and more about personal opinion that anything. And sorry to dismiss it, but thats all I'm reading here.
Post by
Rankkor
but we have
innocent
humans being torn to shreads (dont say they are just scarlet crusaders unless you can prove it with written words)
and don't you say inocent unless you can prove it with written words (boink fwip xD)
there is no evidence whatsoever at who those humans are, no evidence says they are inocent, no evidence says they are not.
by pure logic one can draw the conclution that they are scarlet crusaders, simply because........ o I dunno, they have 3 major bases a few yards away from the undercity, and I dunno, maybe out of all the humans the scarlets are the ones who have hurt the forsaken the most.
also, and this is a real advice I give to you darkton, it may seem boring but trust me is not, make a horde toon.
to be able to do these debate you NEED to know both sides of the strife.
I'm a horde loyalist, allways have and allways will be, and my main is a horde shaman, I got the loremaster achievement, so I know inside and outside all (or most) of the horde quests.
but that didnt' stoped me from making an alliance toon (draenei, they are the best the alliance has to offer) and getting loremaster with them too.
now I know both sides of the strife, and after seeing what I've seen, I chose to stay horde, since they are the ones I prefer.
if u don't wanna go trough the pain of leveling up a toon from 1 to 80 (wich is tedious and all that) you could allways go to the PTR (Public Test Realm) of blizzard and make a horde pre-made, those start at 80 fully geared so u can get those quests done in little time.
i give you this advice because aparently there are many facts u don't know because u havne't played horde-side.
a few examples are:
1: when u said that northwatch was not from kul'tiras, believe me they are, there is a horde quest in razor hill in wihc u discover a letter in a kul'tiras marine oficer in wich they take orders from daelin proudmoore.
2:when u said taht the forsaken don't hate what they are (only cliking sylvannas u'd know that one of her lines is "what are we if not slaves to this torment")
3:when you didn't believed me about sylvannas doing her dagger+doomguard trick on the battle for the undercity (only way to know that would be to do that battle in the horde side)
4: refusing to believe that the forsaken have started a change in their behaviour, they have, if u had quested in northrend as a hordie, on howling fjord and dragonblight all the forsaken quests revolve arround the blight, but after wrathgate there is no more mention about the blight anymore, they no longer manufacture it, and even on important horde bases such as the horde airship there are no barrels of blight to be found.
the forsaken haven't 100% changed yet, they HAVE NOT, but the foundation for the change has been laid, for one thing they no longer manufacture the blight, and that's the first step.
hopefully other steps will follow.
all changes start with a single step, for the blood-elves it was to stop draining power from a naaru, and was followed by other steps later down the road, and culminated with their full redemption at sunwell.
for the orcs, the first step was to renounce the path of warlock magic (a few remain but those represent a minority on their ranks) and embrace shamanism again.
for the trolls the change started when they rennounced canibalism and voodoo magic and also embraced shamansim.
and lastly I'll give u this candy-bar, taken form wow-wiki, on the shamanism article:
When the Forsaken first asked to join the Horde, Thrall would have refused if it were not for the Earthen Ring's urgings. According to Thrall, a council of sages, known as the Earthen Ring, asked him to allow the Forsaken into the Horde. They claimed that the Forsaken battle demons that Thrall’s own race is still fighting to this day. To turn his back on the Forsaken was to forget the horrors the orc race fought for generations.HPG 151 Members of the Earthen Ring believe that the Forsaken can be cured of the plague of undeath.
taken from the article about the earthen ring in wowwiki.com
make a horde toon and u'll see
and coutless more examples. trust me it's allways better to know both sides of a conflict to gain that sort of wisdom needed to wield valid arguments and points against a fellow debater.
so take my advice, roll a horde alt for quests only, if u don't wanna level it, doit on the PTR; freebie lvl 80 and epics, to be ready for questing like crazy.
I promise you u wont regret it, I did it with an alliance toon and while I'm still horde-inclined, I now know and understand my enemy a lot more, and there is wisdom in that understanding
"keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer"
Varian has seen no good side in orcs
but a lot of plp he actually trusts, people that are his friends, have seen good in the orcs, and the fact that the doesn't listen makes him a faulty leader.
you praised thrall because he listened to the spirits about medivh and to trust him, but you seem to praise varian even more for ignorign his close friend tirion about the orcs?
he has seen no more htan 10 orcs do evil deeds, and judges an entire race because of it, he has seen no orc do a good deed but almost all his friends have, and he doesn't listen to them.
also, again you keep forgetting that the last time the horde sent garona, that was the OLD HORDE.
varian really needs to learn the diference from the old demon-controlled warlock-ruled horde and the new shamanistic horde
Metzen you seem to forget one important fact about him. Metzen is a huge fan of Thrall, and isn't going to write him off
don't forget that he does the actual voice of thrall, thrall is like his child, he made it, he raised it, sure as hell he's not gonna get rid of him
Post by
451455
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Post by
Adamsm
Thrall will more then likely be heading north to fight Ragnaros alongside Malfurion, so that the strongest druid on the planet and the strongest shaman will take on the most powerful of the Elemental Lord's as he tries to destroy the re-growing World Tree.
Post by
Rankkor
I dont flame him
you called him racist, and even said "taretha sacrificed herself for this guy?"
that's flaming
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437763
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451455
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