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Post by
Adamsm
"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child,"Comparing transgenderism to anorexia,
really
?
Well this particular article was written on Fox News so.....yeah.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
To be fair, 11 is too young for a child to have really fully formed a gender identity, and I do think that the parents are being ridiculous. At 6, my little brother wanted to wear my mother's nail polish and at 8 he tried on her high heels. Ages 11-13 my sister cut her hair short and dressed in all boys clothes. One of my guy friends in junior high, who later came out as gay, used to spend a lot of time using my perfumes and body sprays, and talking about cosmetics. None of them ended up being trans-gender.
I am a full supporter of any adult's right to live the way they choose, with whom they choose, in a way that makes them happy. But a child doesn't really have the full decision-making capabilities to decide this. If the child wants to wear certain clothes, grow out his hair, and express that he wishes to be female in other ways then I think the parents should let him express himself. But doing any kind of medical procedure on a child, which will have long lasting effects, before they're old enough to be able to make the decision for themselves is just wrong. If the parents are wrong, and the child isn't trans-gender, but just identifies very strongly with his mothers and is emulating them in play, they're going to have stunted his physical development and potentially damaged his ability to have children or to develop a physique that will make him feel confident in his gender identity.
It's not about homophobia (well, the article is laced with it, but you can disagree with this kids parents for reasons that have nothing to do with homophobia). I would have the same reaction to a parent who wanted to raise their child's self esteem by giving them a breast enlargement, or botox, because that's what they wanted. Or who let a child make his or her own decisions at this age regarding bed times, diet and nutrition, whether or not to do homework, etc. I don't think a child of that age has enough perspective on what it really means to be male or female, and all that is encompassed in that, at that age.
IMO, let the child dress and act how he wants, let him know that he is loved and accepted no matter how he chooses to live his life, and when he turns 18 if he decides that he wants to go through the gender reassignment process, then start looking at medical procedures.
Post by
MyTie
and when he turns 18 if he decides that he wants to go through the gender reassignment process, then start looking at medical procedures.
Never has self acceptance been so unacceptable of self before. "I am not who I am unless I am no longer who I am, and can become who I really am, which can only be done by surgically altering my genitalia." Seems counter intuitive to me.
Post by
Jubilee
One's body does not always reflect one's inner disposition.
If I feel like a woman and I want to interact with society as a woman, but I am not a woman, then I would do what I could to rectify that.
Post by
MyTie
One's body does not always reflect one's inner disposition.
If I feel like a woman and I want to interact with society as a woman, but I am not a woman, then I would do what I could to rectify that.
How does one who has a penis feel like a woman? What does being a woman 'feel' like? What does that mean?
Post by
Adamsm
One's body does not always reflect one's inner disposition.
If I feel like a woman and I want to interact with society as a woman, but I am not a woman, then I would do what I could to rectify that.
How does one who has a penis feel like a woman? What does being a woman 'feel' like? What does that mean?
The same way you feel like a man who has strong religious views.
Post by
pezz
Actually a lot of transgendered people now aren't getting any sort of surgery. It's expensive, damaging, and ultimately unnecessary. For the individual in question, their brain sends MUCH stronger signals regarding their sexuality than their genitalia.
At the article: I think they
should
try to delay puberty until the kid is old enough to responsibly make life-long identity decisions, or any other sort of life-long decision. There'll be plenty of time to go through puberty once he's 40.
Post by
MyTie
One's body does not always reflect one's inner disposition.
If I feel like a woman and I want to interact with society as a woman, but I am not a woman, then I would do what I could to rectify that.
How does one who has a penis feel like a woman? What does being a woman 'feel' like? What does that mean?
The same way you feel like a man who has strong religious views.
I know how I feel like a man. I feel like a man because I am a man. I am a man because I fit the characteristics that make me a man. Those characteristics are the chromosomes at conception, and my penis and testicles. However, my religious views are not attached to my body. They are purely an intellectual and emotional undertaking. There is no part of my body that needs to be cut off to fit this description. I object to the analogy of gender to religion.
Post by
Jubilee
How does one who has a penis feel like a woman? What does being a woman 'feel' like? What does that mean?
Feels more top-heavy than men, I would think ;)
In all seriousness, having a penis isn't what makes you feel like a man. If, heaven forbid, you were to be unfortunately deprived, you would still have the same inner male characteristics as before. It's those things that are backwards in a person who is transgendered.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually MyTie, it was a reference to your sense of self.
Post by
pezz
Since MyTie clarified his point a little bit: Genitals are ancillary to the brain in gender identity. It's possible to 'be a woman trapped in a man's body' however trite and vague that sounds.
Actually, there is an excellent religion analogy, while we're making them. Saint Paul, in dealing with the issue of Gentiles joining the Christian faith, talked about the covenant of Abraham and the covenant of Moses. The covenant of Moses was the deal that Jews like Paul had with God, and it required them to keep Jewish laws (e.g., circumcision). The covenant of Abraham was the Gentile covenant of God, and didn't require them to keep those laws. Because, after all, if you know in your heart and mind that you're a Christian, do you really need to adopt the physical characteristics (circumcision) of the more traditional branch of the religion?
Post by
MyTie
Actually, there is an excellent religion analogy, while we're making them. Saint Paul, in dealing with the issue of Gentiles joining the Christian faith, talked about the covenant of Abraham and the covenant of Moses. The covenant of Moses was the deal that Jews like Paul had with God, and it required them to keep Jewish laws (e.g., circumcision). The covenant of Abraham was the Gentile covenant of God, and didn't require them to keep those laws. Because, after all, if you know in your heart and mind that you're a Christian, do you really need to adopt the physical characteristics (circumcision) of the more traditional branch of the religion?
Interesting that we should compare circumcision to trans-gender surgical procedures.
I gotta say, I retire from this debate because you guys are really doing well at hitting on all fronts. When you guys say that gender is defined by how you 'self identify' and how you 'feel', and I say your gender is defined by what gender you are, I find myself unable to further explain my position. The beginning and end of my argument is that you are what gender your gender is. I say that gender cannot be changed by surgery. Mr.Garrison is and always will be a dude. That's kind of what makes the whole angle hard to accept. I cannot simply take on the physical characteristics of whatever it is I feel that I am to somehow exist as that person. Michael Jackson was black. He may have disfigured himself, but he was simply a disfigured black person.
Here, let me put it into feel good liberal terms:
I accept people for who they are. I think that everyone is beautiful, no matter what God they believe made them, or even if they don't believe in that at all. I
think
feel that each of us is a beautiful snowflake, and we should learn to love who we are, without feeling like we should change that into something else. I accept everything about everyone, and I wish everyone would do the same for others, and themselves.
There, that should be bland and meaningless enough, while still holding my meaning.
Post by
Adamsm
So what's wrong with some people having Gender Identity Issues and fixing them? If the point is to accept everyone, then people should be accepting of their life style choice.
That said, the issue for that article was more about the 'doctors' seeming to choose to blame everyone on the boy's lesbian mothers, instead of you know....realizing that other doctors accept the Gender Identity issues as being real.
Post by
Jubilee
If a person's physical identity is in conflict with their emotional and mental identity, you believe that they should not try to reconcile the two?
Post by
pezz
If a person's physical identity is in conflict with their emotional and mental identity, you believe that they should not try to reconcile the two?
Personally, no. Mangling your junk doesn't make you any more of a man/woman. But they can if they want, I suppose.
Post by
Jubilee
Personally, no. Mangling your junk doesn't make you any more of a man/woman. But they can if they want, I suppose.
How you are perceived and how you relate to others is a very big part of gender. We can tell when someone is acting
manly
or when a woman is a tom
boy
. There are social conceptions and idea that define our various relationships and how we appear can be very important.
Post by
MyTie
If a person's physical identity is in conflict with their emotional and mental identity, you believe that they should not try to reconcile the two?
No, they shouldn't. If I mentally identify as a something I am not, I do not surgically alter myself. That's changing who I am. But, in the end, a woman cannot be surgically changed into a man, nor a man into a woman. The brain, nerves, muscles, bones, glands, everything... it's all different. A man is not a woman, no matter what he feels. A woman is not a man, no matter what she feels. Feelings do not make gender. Gender makes gender. I cannot expand my explanation beyond that because that is the limits of my explanation. A person cannot be surgically altered to exist as a horse, because a person is not a horse, just like you cannot surgically alter a horse into a person, no matter what that horse does, or feels like.
Post by
Adamsm
Gender Reassignment surgery would like a word with you MyTie.
Post by
pezz
Gender reassignment surgery is more wishful thinking than reassignment. My only disagreement with MyTie in this thread is that he places too much important on the physical aspects of gender and too little on how the brain self-identifies. He's right though, the physiological archetypes that more often than not are associated with male and female brains are radically different in ways surgery cannot hope to address.
@Jubilee: True, as far as it goes, but I don't understand how it's a response to me. I'm thinking perhaps I didn't read your first point carefully enough, but I'm still not sure.
Post by
HoleofArt
Gender reassignment surgery is more wishful thinking than reassignment. My only disagreement with MyTie in this thread is that he places too much important on the physical aspects of gender and too little on how the brain self-identifies. He's right though, the physiological archetypes that more often than not are associated with male and female brains are radically different in ways surgery cannot hope to address.
This.
You can identify yourself as woman when you're male due to just being and feeling that way, but you will never be a woman in the literal sense. You cannot produce offspring no matter how many surgeries you have.
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