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Abortion Debate
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Post by
Gone
a creepy alien thing
I feel very strongly as if this is bait. It's extremely disrespectful, especially in this debate
That's true. We didn't let Magician joke about men vs women in the feminism thread, people shouldn't be making jokes like that here either.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Well I probably should ignore your comments of misogyny too since I found that equally disgusting.
Was that directed at me or MyTie?
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
A woman shouldn't have choice over whether to kill her babies, born or not. Apparently, that is misogynistic. That's her thing. Men who don't want to allow women to kill babies, just hate women.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lankybrit
A woman shouldn't have choice over whether to kill her babies, born or not. Apparently, that is misogynistic.
Define 'baby'. I define it as a a living human after birth. Your turn.
Cheers.
Post by
hatman555
Treading close to the edge of direct insults here. Everyone has an opinion. You can say what you want about that opinion, but your probably not going to change it. A little more discussion, a little less argument would solve some of the problems. I will be issuing 24 hour bans to people if needed. So far no rule breaking, but we shouldn't get into nasty land anyways.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
No shaming a woman for having sex is misogyny.
However, yes frankly, you trying to impose your morals on women and telling them what to do with their bodies and shaming them for their decisions is somewhat misogynic as well.
Shaming them? For sex? I pointed out that sex is a choice. Was that what I did that was misogynistic?
I have a question, if the pro-life crowd, from your point of view, just wants to tell women what to do with their bodies, then why JUST this? Why don't we also force women to not get their appendix taken out? I mean, if we are just a bunch of misogynistic hateful men, why do we allow women to do anything they want, except this one thing.
Also, I'm still rolling my eyes over your response to my "sex is a choice" comment with "misogyny". I just can't logically follow this stuff. It just doesn't make any sense.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
Also may I remind you that "especially to someone who's "creepy alien thing" died,", you did not carry that fetus, so it isn't your creepy alien thing, and it did hurt your wife a lot, but it wasn't your body it happened to, and similary, a woman who is pregnant and can't take being pregnant because of physical issues or emotional/mental issues has nothing to do with you, it is not your body. I find it highly disrespectful that you even attempt to make it about yourself. I'm sorry for your wife that she had to go through that, just as I am sorry for women who have something in their body that they don't want there and are being shamed for not being able to take it.
Dude do you really think it doesn't effect men at all? Obviously miscarriage takes a tougher toll on woman, nobody's refuting that. But that doesn't mean men don't become attached to their unborn children. There's nothing disrespectful about MyTie saying he was hurt by the loss of his unborn baby...
How is anyone going for direct insults here? If you are referring to me I would love an email about it cause it makes no sense to me.
He may have been referring to some stuff I said a page or two ago...
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
So, I honestly
don't give a crap
if the mother thinks it's some weird alien gross thing. An unborn baby
can't look any worse than a penis, and she wanted that inside her... so... well...
It is a choice and you are shaming her for that choice and her attraction to the opposite sex, it is clear in your wording. Are you always going to do this, imply something quite clearly but slightly go around it so you don't use direct words and then go WELL I'D NEVER.
And I was not the only one picking up on this.
Actually, I'm not ashamed to say that I have sex with my wife regularly, within the last 12 hours, in fact. It was terrific. There is nothing "in my wording", about shame for taking a penis inside her, just that to do so is a choice, and is no less beautiful a part of life than having a child.
You're problem here is that you are trying to read misogyny into my words when I can prove that there is none, with my own personal life, and my actions with my wife. Of course it affects men, but it isn't his body, it isn't a fetus growing in him.
I meant it is disrespectful that he would make this debate about him when the fetus isn't in his body, and this isn't about miscarriage anyway.
A miscarriage is a woman wanting her baby and losing it, abortion is in no way the same thing.
To the baby, it is death, all the same.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
Also may I remind you that "especially to someone who's "creepy alien thing" died,", you did not carry that fetus, so it isn't your creepy alien thing, and it did hurt your wife a lot, but it wasn't your body it happened to, and similary, a woman who is pregnant and can't take being pregnant because of physical issues or emotional/mental issues has nothing to do with you, it is not your body. I find it highly disrespectful that you even attempt to make it about yourself. I'm sorry for your wife that she had to go through that, just as I am sorry for women who have something in their body that they don't want there and are being shamed for not being able to take it.
I find this to be in incredibly bad taste. It's not rule breaking, but it's nasty. You are going for cheap shots in your wording. I hope you can stop being blinded by your hate for another user, and think of the other men around the world who are actively trying to have children and the devastation they feel with their partners when they lose an unborn child.
I may be a man saying this, but I am speaking for others as well, my personal friends who are reading this, some of them women, and shaking they're heads. I can't tell you how sad some of the arguments are in this thread.
How is anyone going for direct insults here? If you are referring to me I would love an email about it cause it makes no sense to me. It was a general warning for
everyone
. The have grey areas of interpretation, and in a debate like this which we know will get heated, we will try and read through the heat, and try and follow the letter of the law. Yet I will quote this line, as a fair warning to everyone.
Please note that shaming, bad mouthing, or expressing dislike of a user on our forums falls under harassment and will not be tolerated.
If we feel content leaves the realm of debate and enters harassment, we will take action.
Cheers,
Hat(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##hatman555##DELIM##
Post by
Ksero
Of course it affects men, but it isn't his body, it isn't a fetus growing in him.
I meant it is disrespectful that he would make this debate about him when the fetus isn't in his body, and this isn't about miscarriage anyway.
A miscarriage is a woman wanting her baby and losing it, abortion is in no way the same thing.
Id like to point out this isn't a man vs woman thing, ive been arguing the pro-choice side from a guys point of view and i agree with a lot (not all) of what elurae said.
1)Imposing your morals on another group is wrong.
2)Denying a woman a chance to get an abortion is imposing your morals on them.
3)Therefore, denying the woman the chance to get an abortion is wrong.
I understand that the pro-life stance thinks the woman is imposing her morals on the fetus, which they view as having the same rights as someone who has been born. The problem is, a fetus is not a newborn, physiologically, they are different, to say they are the same is literal untruth.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
You are shaming her for finding a penis attractive in the first place.
No. I'm not, Elura. There is no shame in a desire for sex, from a woman, nor a man. So, I don't know what you're talking about. I've told you that I wasn't before, and you insist that I am, even though I never said anything about shame before. You read that "under" the words that I said, and no matter what I say, you insist to tell me what it is that I meant. So, we can't go anywhere. If you are going to tell me what I mean, no matter what it is I say, and then argue against what it is you tell me that I mean, I'm not really a part of the discussion. It's you having it with yourself. If you want to believe me when I tell you what it is that I think, then we can get somewhere. Until then, have fun with your debate.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
So apparently I am addicted to Wowhead forums, and watching them for 6 weeks without saying anything is about my limit. Maybe would have worked better if I didn't have to read everything to mod.
In response to the last two statements you made, Elura:
1) I think that, if you asked them under calmer circumstances, you'd find that people who are pro-life would be just as hard on a man who had unprotected sex, and risked creating a child, knowing that if the child happened it was likely to be aborted. It's not about shaming one gender for sex. It's about shaming people who make a choice to put a child in harms way for their own enjoyment. If you believe a fetus is a child, then someone having unprotected sex, knowing that it leads to pregnancy, and that that pregnancy either will or has a strong chance to be aborted, is making a choice to put a child in a dangerous situation. THAT is the choice that they're talking about, and it applies equally to men and women. Someone who is either pregnant, or has gotten someone pregnant, did so knowing that they were risking the circumstance of pregnancy, and they did it knowing that it could result in the creation of a life that they would then terminate. It is most often is directed at the mothers, because they are the ones who have the final authority to end the pregnancy, but the opinion is not that it is their fault for having sex as a woman, but that it is unconscionable to knowingly create a situation where a child will be killed when there are so many ways to prevent it, regardless of who you are.
Many people who are Pro-Life also belong to religions who have a stance on premarital sex and sometimes birth control as well, but many don't. I don't think that there are a lot of people who are Pro-Life, though- barring some really extreme people- that wouldn't advise that you use a condom rather than abort a fetus. They may not agree with contraception, but when one is someone killing another person, and the other is them sinning in a way that is a detriment to themselves only, most people choose the lesser of two evils.
I am personally not religious, and see no problem with sex or birth control. But since I am of the opinion that a fetus is a human being, I do think that people have a responsibility to not create children just to kill them. And if you have ignored that responsibility, and have created a child, I think that you have already made a choice regarding that. I'm not addressing rape or life of mother cases here- just people who are using abortion as birth control after consensual sex. There are so many ways to prevent pregnancy and still have great sex. I can't weigh the right of a child to live against the right of a pair of adults to not have to spend $5 on condoms, and find that the child's rights lose. The "you made the choice to have sex" argument really means that it is not accurate to say that the only choices were "carry to term and be miserable" or have an abortion- there was a third option, much better than either of the other two, that no one took that led to the desperate situation in the first place.
The Pro-choice argument is that they should have a way to avoid a worst case scenario so it doesn't ruin their lives. The Pro-life argument is that you already did- why didn't take it before you got there, and keep the situation from escalating to the point where it could only be fixed at the expense of another life?
2)If someone believes that the fetus is a child, then they are as emotionally attached to them as they would be to their infant or toddler. Regardless of whether YOU believe it is a child, if that fetus is miscarried, that person is mentally and emotionally going through everything your father would have if you had been run over by a car at age three. If you want to disagree with the law about whether or not you have the right to make the determine if your child is a child, then that's one matter. But if you feel you have the right to tell someone who is grieving the loss of their own child that they don't have the right to because you didn't think it was a child, then you're stepping far over the line of anything that is within your right to decide, and just generally being cruel.
If I had adopted a child who died, I would not stand for someone saying it was not the same for me because it wasn't my blood. If I was a soldier serving overseas, and a baby was born that I never met, and died before I could, I could still feel that I lost a child. Regardless of whatever technicalities you might want to argue, if someone believes that a child of their died, then they will feel grief, and regardless of whether you like them as a person, belittling that grief is really uncalled for. I think that if I said that my cat who I loved had died, people would- even knowing it was just a cat- would have been sensitive enough to know I was in pain and would have offered me sympathy. That you can't do that for a fetus seems illogical, even if you don't think it is a person yet.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
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