This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Prot DPS/PVP - Protribution Guide - Updated 3.3!
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
svirve
You're joking me?
I never said it wasn't viable, I said it was gimp.
You can do better DPS if you switch out the 1 hander+shield for a 2 hander and another talent spec.
Any guild straight in their mind ...
You know what, *!@# it.
By the way, threat concerns? Any decent tank can dish out 4-5k TPS, without threat modifiers, you'd need to do over 5k DPS to get aggro, good luck on that one. Don't give me that bullcrap
Someone having a rough night?
That's what i tried to explain to you, at lower gear levels you will do more DPS with a 2hander but protribution will catch up and most
probably
pass ret on DPS in higher gear levels.
Yes threat concerns, wait so you're saying that any decent tank can dish out 11-13k TPS? Cause you do know that threat modifiers include such things as
RF
.
What you're failing to apprehend is that we're using the max threat rotation for a paladin tank but instead of using HS (since we dont need it) we're subbing exo/AS which means the rotation itself offers more DPS. And since we're geared for doing damage instead of taking it we'll have even more DPS.
Everything so far points towards threat being a major issue, even when failblog first brought it up he mentioned having to slow down not to pass tanks on threat.
As i've said before no one is saying this is a be all end all DPS spec. I've multiple times admitted that we do less DPS than ret but all evidence so far points towards us doing more DPS at higher gear levels. If it's possible to do so in current content i cannot say but by the looks of it we're scaling better than ret.
Post by
178943
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
The commas would suggest either way but anyways this has nothing to do with grammar.
I did say that at first since i didnt expect every letter i wrote to be considered as hard facts. In my second post i did underline that from what we've seen so far it is very probable that we'll pass ret on DPS. I also mentioned that i wasn't sure that it was possible with current content (we do scale better but if it's possible to reach a big enough gap i cant say).
You're expecting me to provide you with a parse, of a spec only used by a handful of people, out dpsing a spec used by 75% of the paladin community?
That's like asking me to find your character in a parse on WWS without using the search function.
I'm downloading the PTR client now to do some tests between ret and protri in the current 3.2 build. What the results will be i cannot say cause i dont know what gear is provided or what conditions i will be playing under.
But i will do my best to provide fair and equally comprehensive tests. If the lag isn't too bad i'll try to do 2, 5 and 10 minute parses.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
By the way i just have to ask, what would you consider a prick attitude?
When trying to conduct a civilized discussion, resorting to namecalling and trash talking would to me be the acts of one only looking for a fight.
Edit:
Off to bed now since PTR download will take another 3 hours and it's soon 5 am here.
I'm looking forward to reading your answer tomorrow and humoring you with some parses from the PTR.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
178943
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
287871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
287871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
<everything>
Ok, so let's sit down and work out what your concerns are.
a) DPS, from a raiding perspective. Yes, at the Heroic and Naxx gear level, you're going to be under Ret. Pretty much all evidence has backed that up, including the maths. But the maths also states that as strength increases, Prot DPS gets a marginal increase above and beyond what Ret gets with the same gear. Scale that up with Hit and Crit, and it's reasonable to believe that it can overtake at some high gear level. Ulduar is a possiblity.
If you want us to demonstrate with WWS parses, why don't you take the same effort? At the end of the day, we're saying that there's a reasonable spec that produces decent DPS (even if not top-of-the-charts DPS). Nobody's claiming that all the paladins will switch to this because it's that much better, only that it's something different.
b) PvP from a burst perspective. Yes, you are missing a Glyphed Avenger's Shield, which can hit for 7-8k without too much difficulty, and will silence your target as well. You're also missing the extra interrupts from a 20 second CD on Hammer of Justice. Not to mention the fact that you don't win in PvP in 7.5 seconds. Divine Storm has a 10 second cooldown - you'll get extra HotR hits in the meantime.
Give it a chance, and see how it goes.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
You're talking about flexing your epeen with a winged AS.
Yet you fail to adress any of the points i bring up, you stray from answering questions i ask you and you continue to act like you were posting this as you came home from kindergarden.
I've done my best to try and have a civilized discussion with you and to be honest, i'm emberassed that i didn't realise sooner that you were only here to pump your ego and act like an ignorant tard.
I'm through with you, go ahead with your prot-bashing my PTR downloads arn't far from finished and then i'll give you some parses.
Pathetic really that a grown man (i assume) can be so obsessed with his own ego.
Post by
Squishalot
Every single ability a retri paladin does scales with strength and the more str they get, the more AP they get, the more SP they get, adding even MORE dps, for protection, your main dps ability doesn't even scale with str, but with BV, and guess what, in 3.2 they're putting a damage cap on that, not that you'd be hitting it with your lolset, but whatever. I know you get BV from str, but really, how much BV do you have in your BiS set, barely 2k?
Yet you keep claiming you scale better? This ignorance just baffles me, sorry.
Ok, really, let's break that down, shall we?
Firstly
- by definition, since BV scales with Str, then every prot ability scales with Str, INCLUDING our main dps ability. By highlighting that we're nowhere near BV capped with our 'BiS' example,
you're only highlighting that the BV cap doesn't make a difference from a PvE perspective
, where you're less concerned about the burst you're getting, and more concerned with your overall DPS.
Secondly
- let's look at the actual abilities. 7 Str increases AP by 14, DPS by 1. That increases weapon damage by 3.3 for the purposes of looking at CS and DS (assuming 3.1 for now). That means that your DS does an extra 3.63 damage, and your CS does an extra 4.719 damage. Over 30 seconds, assuming no clashes, that's an extra 3.63 * 3 + 4.719 * 5 = 34.485 damage.
Compare that to increasing your ShoR and HotR damage. 7 Str increases DPS by 1, BV by 3.5. This means that your HotR damage goes up by a flat 4, and your ShoR goes up by 3.5 * 1.6 (from Redoubt and the damage scaling on ShoR, assuming it's only additive, and not 1.69 being multiplicative) = 5.6 damage. Over 30 seconds, assuming no clashes with a 9-6 rotation, that's an extra 4 * 5 + 5.6 * 5 = 48 damage.
Once you factor in Weapon Specs, you get 34.485 * 1.06 =
36.55
vs 48 * 1.1 =
52.8
.
So on CS and DS alone, you can see that there's a huge bonus from being Prot rather than Ret, on your 'big damage' abilities. The actual number is closer, because SoB/M is weighted more towards the two-handers, but specifically,
your argument that Strength helps Ret abilities more than Prot abilities is 100% false
.
Just for the sake of argument, let's consider the spellpower benefit. Ret gets an extra 4.2 SP, meaning that your two Exorcisms do an extra 0.63 damage each, and your Consecrate does an extra 4.8 damage over the 30 seconds, assuming 30 ticks (that is, 100% uptime). But Prot gets an extra 10% on the AP benefit, so really, the benefit is only two thirds, meaning you'll get an extra 3.7 damage over 30 seconds. Not enough to catch up.
Anything else about ignorance you'd like to assert?
Post by
89501
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
What would you define as 'full standard utility'? How much extra utility does the second Ret pally bring to a raid? (Edit: I just realised, you meant Divine Sacrifice? You can sacrifice things like your Imp RF or Toughness for it, if you know you're not going to PvP...)
Essentially, a Protribution pally is a high-survival rogue with blessings, in terms of the utility they bring to a raid. If you already have 3 pallies for Kings/Might/Wisdom, they can give the whole raid a 3% damage reduc with Sanctuary.
I think target dummies will always give a fairly deflated view of Protribution, unfortunately, for precisely the reason you've identified - no raid buffs. Even just the 3% extra from Sanctified Retribution, the 3% extra haste for the melee/SoB damage. From that perspective, it's fairly sad, since it's a catch 22 - you don't get into raids because you can't demonstrate it at a target dummy, and that's because you don't have the raid buffs you need to be at full strength.
As for burst, it's been suggested that Prot burst is stronger than Ret burst. CS is getting nerfed from a burst perspective, since it causes early rotational clashes, as well as being off the GCD timer, and Judgement is being weakened. ShoR, AS, HotR and Exo does more damage in four GCDs than CS, DS, Exo and Judgement/CS again.
The theory all seems to fall into place. The geared players don't want to change their ways, and the undergeared players can't replicate the theory, because they need the gear and the chance to do it. That's why most of the responses we've had to this thread are based around PvP, where the 'undergeared' players can still make a showing.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
You guys are just playing the "omg you're mean" and "flex your own epeen" cards because you know I'm probably right.
And how am I flexing my epeen? lmao
Actually, I'm just saying that you're ignorant (hypocrite, muchly?)and full of hot air, because you're making unsubstantiated claims that end up being false. Burst, Str scaling, what next? That I'm playing the "omg you're mean" card? Another unsubstantiated claim that's false, funnily enough.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
320645
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.