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Sylvanas and Vereesa - huh?
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Post by
Rankkor
You are assuming she will side with the blood elves as opposed to the elves who not only avoided the taint of fel magic, stayed with the faction which did not try and burn down her home nation and killed numerous members of her immediate family, is the one her husband and actually living sister is aligned with; but rather she would side with the blood elves who enslaved a Naaru,
whose agents helped deploy WoW's first weapon of mass destruction and later grabbed a second one thus revealing if the Sunreavers went full Horde they could literally portal right into an enemy capital city
, and whose king tried and bring Kil'jaeden into the world. You know, the guy who orchestrated the orcs creation and who also helped create the Scourge.
...Yeah, all things considered the blood elves have an unfortunate tendency towards screwing themselves.
This is not really fair you know?
According to you, I can't use garithos as an example of the entire alliance, apparently he's just a bad apple, an isolated incident, and thus I can't blame the entire alliance of his crap. But you can use TWO sunreaver agents as an example, they represent the entirety of the blood elves, and their actions automatically make HER ENTIRE COUNTRY deserving of their fate.
How fair is that? If I can't use garithos, you can't use the sunreavers. And before you say "But...... but garithos was just the one time, whereas the sunreavers stole a WMD twice" I'll counter with "And the alliance has had two racist psychos that chose to butcher blood elves left and right and imprisioned them all in the violet hold on a whim TWICE as well". What's up with the double-standard? Garithos and Jaina, both of them major high-ranking high-profile psychos don't represent the entirety of the alliance, but two unknown schmucks represent the entirety of the blood elves?
The same blood elves who after purifying the well allowed the High Elves to enter it, only to be stabbed in the back by those same elves in dalaran?
Lets be balanced here.
As for the actions of Kael'thas to bring Kil'jaeden to azeroth, that can't be counted because he was NEVER endorsed by Quel'thalas or the blood elves (well, the HORDE blood elves) I'll remind you that we helped stop him too.
And finally, the Enslavement of a Naaru was a good thing because it set in motion the chain of events that eventually purified the well, providing the people with a much needed source of magic.
Also you're automatically assuming that she and turalyon are still together. And finally, yes Sylvanas kidnapped Kol'tira, but that's not a publicly known incident, she did it in isolation on the basement of that inn. And only horde players know about it.
Post by
morginar
TWO sunreaver agents
One is confirmed.
One is just belived and is fully possible that the guy is a reliquary that thinks with portals.
garithos
Was a leader, the Sunreaver agent was a follower, Othmar had support to his action. He represented humanity and the alliance for a short period of time, the agent did not represent the sunreavers as he followed a bald and brown orc.
As for the actions of Kael'thas to bring Kil'jaeden to azeroth, that can't be counted because he was NEVER endorsed by Quel'thalas or the blood elves (well, the HORDE blood elves) I'll remind you that we helped stop him too.
We can balance that with the Lich King, becouse Arthas is as much alliance as Keal'thas is horde.
And Alleria has been on a alien planet for over 20 years, she has undoubtebly suffered from her arcane addicton. It is likley she has taken fel at some point to ease the pain.
Post by
Adamsm
And Alleria has been on a alien planet for over 20 years, she has undoubtebly suffered from her arcane addicton. It is likley she has taken fel at some point to ease the pain.
I sorta of doubt it; she may have used one of the Alliance Expedition mages that escaped through the portal with her and her husband; after all, that's how Vereesa staved off her own fall. It's hard and harsh, but the High Elves can fend it off, especially if they are strong willed...and you don't get more pig headed then Alleria Windrunner.
Post by
Skreeran
I really, really doubt Alleria will join the Horde.
Post by
morginar
I really, really doubt Alleria will join the Horde.
One can always hope?
Depending on how you look at Alleria you can see her going to horde or the alliance, like how a coin has two sides, but still is the same item. Toss the coin into the air and blizzard will say what side she join.
And Alleria has been on a alien planet for over 20 years, she has undoubtebly suffered from her arcane addicton. It is likley she has taken fel at some point to ease the pain.
I sorta of doubt it; she may have used one of the Alliance Expedition mages that escaped through the portal with her and her husband; after all, that's how Vereesa staved off her own fall. It's hard and harsh, but the High Elves can fend it off, especially if they are strong willed...and you don't get more pig headed then Alleria Windrunner.
That is if there are mages with her...
Well there might be void spawned creatures she can feed of from, but high elves seperated from Silvermoon becouse of that...
Post by
Adamsm
And since she hates Taint, I can't see her ever feeding on something that has it within them.
Post by
morginar
And since she hates Taint, I can't see her ever feeding on something that has it within them.
And starvation has turned people into cannibalism.
A starvaton for arcane can have extreme results, Keal'thas saw it as madness to drain demonc energy.
Post by
oneforthemoney
The matter of Koltira was mroe to disprove the idea that Sylvanas never harmed a citizen of Quel'Thalas, rather than specific evidence to be used against Vareesa joining the Horde.
As for Garithos, I did say he should be discounted as a point against the Alliance, because he was a splinter group, not representing the Alliance as a whole since after the plague the Alliance as a whole barely existed. Hating the Alliance due to what he did is the equivalent of hating the Horde due to the Dark Horde. They are affiliated with the past groups and not a reflection of the current.
Or actually, let's be even more fair. Let us say that Garithos is in the same position as Kael'Thas. Ironically, both are divided from their main groups and acted as individuals along with their followers. Yet, both were also affiliated closely with their original faction. So, if we consider that Garithos should count in this discussion, then why should Kael'Thas not? Because we helped put one down and not the other? Or because the severity of their crimes are unequal?
And finally, in regards to the High Elves stabbing the Blood Elves in the back, no. It was excessive, I will grant you what Jaina did. But let me make this perfectly clear. The Sunreavers
are to blame
for that debacle.
They
are in charge of their movements, who uses
their
facilities, and for what it is
their
members do. It is
their
job to police themselves and ensure that their equipment and people do not foul up. The theft of the Divine Bell is their fault for not keeping a closer eye on their own people, even after it was proven decisively that had problems in the ranks. The fact that they did not beef up their own security to prevent something like this from happening, even though they knew for a fact they had already been compromised, shows that they did not take their position seriously.
What happened afterwards with the purge was not their fault. But everything leading up to it falls squarely on their shoulders for not being able to prevent it.
Post by
morginar
Money.
There once was a russian, german and a man named Bellman.
The russian kills Bellman and plants evidance that it was the german that killed Bellman. Who is to blame for the death of Bellman in this senario?
Now replace the russian with Garrosh. The german to the sunreavers. And Bellman to the Kirin Tor, and instead of killing Bellman. A bell gets stolen from Kirin Tor.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Money.
There once was a russian, german and a man named Bellman.
The russian kills Bellman and plants evidance that it was the german that killed Bellman. Who is to blame for the death of Bellman in this senario?
That...makes no sense in this context. The difference here is that the Sunreavers are an organization inside Dalaran, and whose job it is to police themselves and have already been caught with their pants down by a traitorous member of their organization, who then fail to stop something similar from happening again.
So in this case, the German knew the Russian would like to kill Bellman, and has killed a man like Bellman before, but does not have the means of killing Bellman just now. The German has a gun, much like a knife he had before though the latter was stolen by the Russian to kill the man similar to Bellman. The German leaves the gun on his desk, invites the Russian in, and then is surprised that the gun is now missing, and is used to kill Bellman. In which case, I'd say a fair amount of blame falls on the German, yes.
Post by
morginar
But we do not know if the russian was ever invited by the german. The russian has never been seen with the German.
The german had a friend like the russian who killed a man like Bellman, yes.
Post by
oneforthemoney
But we do not know if the russian was ever invited by the german. The russian has never been seen with the German.
The german had a friend like the russian who killed a man like Bellman, yes.
No. If the Russian represents Garrosh, he is not 'like' another friend. He is the same man, has been to the German's house before, and the German should know damn well to be wary of him and his influences.
Post by
Rankkor
As for Garithos, I did say he should be discounted as a point against the Alliance, because he was a splinter group, not representing the Alliance as a whole
Same can be said about the double-agents, they weren't representing the blood elves in any way, they weren't even representing the horde, they were representing Garrosh's True Horde which treated the rest of the horde like dirt.
So I must ask the question of why Garithos and Jaina who are both high profile, high ranking peolpe can't represent what every human is like, but one random schmuck apparently represents what every blood elf is like.
Or actually, let's be even more fair. Let us say that Garithos is in the same position as Kael'Thas. Ironically, both are divided from their main groups and acted as individuals along with their followers. Yet, both were also affiliated closely with their original faction. So, if we consider that Garithos should count in this discussion, then why should Kael'Thas not? Because we helped put one down and not the other? Or because the severity of their crimes are unequal?
Because as Mogrinar said, if you wanna bring Kael'thas into this, I'll bring Arthas. A human prince that personally butchered 90% of Quel'thalas, and even offed one of the sisters of Alleria herself.
If he doesn't represents what the alliance is about, then neither does kael'thas.
And if you still need more bad apples inside the alliance, I can raise Benedictus, and many many MANY more.
But let me make this perfectly clear. The Sunreavers are to blame for that debacle. They are in charge of their movements, who uses their facilities, and for what it is their members do.
If that's true, then why weren't all the members of the Church of Holy light executed in broad daylight? They are in charge of their movements, who uses their facilities, and what their members do. A good chunk of them including their leader ended up aiding Deathwing bring about the end of the world.
All the sunreavers were guilty of, is being deceived by traitors, something that the alliance has ZERO right to judge as they've been deceived by traitors within their own ranks HUNDREDS of times (Just to name a few: Church of Holy light with benedictus, Druids with Leyara, Gnomes with Thermaplugg, Humans with the house of nobles, etc etc)
But everything leading up to it falls squarely on their shoulders for not being able to prevent it.
But again, who is alleria going to side with? her people who's sole mistake was being deceived by isolated traitors that don't represent her people (Much like the humans have been betrayed internally too) or the humans who reacted with extreme prejudice and hypocrisy and chose to kill and/or incarcerate them?
She's been shown to be an ultra-patriotic fanatic. Kinda like a female Captain America for elves. In her mind, Quel'thalas > everything. And so far, her kingdom has been hit pretty hard by nothing but humans, first with Arthas, then Garithos, then Jaina and her own sister Vereesa. I simply don't see her joining forces with the same group that so far has stomped her own people to a bloody pulp.
There's only so many "They're a bad apple" one can take before deciding enough is enough.
Post by
morginar
Still to go back to Azeroth with the tale.
Silverthorn is not confirmed to be sunreaver.
For all we know he could have hacked the barriers in Darnassus like a firewall and used Dalaran as a Proxy to put blame on the sunreavers.
We should not assume that Silverthorn is a Sunreaver becouse it is convinient.
who is alleria going to side with?
Flip a coin, but instead of the coin picking the side it chose as the sands in a hourglass pours down as they chose. The coin lands on the side determined by a enginner called Blizzard as if it was a clockwork.
Edit: Also Rankkor, what did you think of my tale of Bellman?
Post by
Rankkor
Still to go back to Azeroth with the tale.
Silverthorn is not confirmed to be sunreaver.
For all we know he could have hacked the barriers in Darnassus like a firewall and used Dalaran as a Proxy to put blame on the sunreavers.
We should not assume that Silverthorn is a Sunreaver becouse it is convinient.
He's not. He's a reliquary officer from the start. Aethas was pushing for unification with the alliance, and his people were not aiding the horde with any projects.
And the official Lor'themar bio in wow's website bluntly states that Garrosh manipulated the theft to put the blame on the blood elves to prevent them from joining the alliance, thus killing three birds with one stone (Gets the WMD and at the same time prevents the alliance from gaining more backup, while at the same time preventing his forces from taking a dive)
Edit: Also Rankkor, what did you think of my tale of Bellman?
I dunno who's that T_T
Flip a coin, but instead of the coin picking the side it chose as the sands in a hourglass pours down as they chose. The coin lands on the side determined by a enginner called Blizzard as if it was a clockwork.
You're right on this too. Many times we've seen many characters act against their established personality before. They're simply at the whims of the writers, even if sometimes their actions make absolutely no sense. Latest example that comes to mind is that abominable relationship between Kalec and Jaina.
Which BTW is not confirmed as broken (though we can all pray together it does). Golden only said things weren't peachy between them. That's all.
Post by
morginar
Like I posted, he is not a sunreaver.
And you can read my Bellman a few posts up. Bellman talles are based to make humor. Kinda like X and Y walks into a bar.
Post by
oneforthemoney
So I must ask the question of why Garithos and Jaina who are both high profile, high ranking peolpe can't represent what every human is like, but one random schmuck apparently represents what every blood elf is like.
What? A random schmuck? we're talking about Kael'Thas. Their king up to the literal point he tried to summon Kil'Jaedan. He has statues of himself littered around Silvermoon. He is hardly some random schmuck.
Or actually, let's be even more fair. Let us say that Garithos is in the same position as Kael'Thas. Ironically, both are divided from their main groups and acted as individuals along with their followers. Yet, both were also affiliated closely with their original faction. So, if we consider that Garithos should count in this discussion, then why should Kael'Thas not? Because we helped put one down and not the other? Or because the severity of their crimes are unequal?
Because as Mogrinar said, if you wanna bring Kael'thas into this, I'll bring Arthas. A human prince that personally butchered 90% of Quel'thalas, and even offed one of the sisters of Alleria herself.
If he doesn't represents what the alliance is about, then neither does kael'thas.
Because Arthas was no more a Prince of Lordaeron when he sacked Quel'Thalas than Sargeras was a member of the Forger Team when he formed the Burning Legion. Arthas was an undead abomination who had not only massacred his own kingdom, but then moved on to Quel'Thalas. Kael'Thas was an idol of his people and remained their king right up to the point that he started trying to summon the co-leader of the Burning Legion into Azeroth, which was moments before his death.
But let me make this perfectly clear. The Sunreavers are to blame for that debacle. They are in charge of their movements, who uses their facilities, and for what it is their members do.
If that's true, then why weren't all the members of the Church of Holy light executed in broad daylight? They are in charge of their movements, who uses their facilities, and what their members do. A good chunk of them including their leader ended up aiding Deathwing bring about the end of the world.
All the sunreavers were guilty of, is being deceived by traitors, something that the alliance has ZERO right to judge as they've been deceived by traitors within their own ranks HUNDREDS of times (Just to name a few: Church of Holy light with benedictus, Druids with Leyara, Gnomes with Thermaplugg, Humans with the house of nobles, etc etc)
Because unlike the agents who betrayed the Sunreavers, none of they had any idea this might happen. If Benedictus's predecessor had betrayed the church and sided with the Scourge, you had better believe he would have been watched like a hawk.
You see, the difference here that I am trying to argue Rankorr is that the Sunreavers emphatically failed to prevent their members betraying the neutral organization they supported
twice
. Once is excusable, and was, but a second time? They had warning this might happen, it is part of their responsibility to act on that, and yet they failed to put in measures which would prevent it. They brought it on themselves by their own negligence. The massacre was due to Jaina going nuts, but the Sunreavers failed to prevent arriving to that point. If Silverthorn is not even a member, than really that just makes it worse, because it proved nearly
anyone
could have used their portals to pull this sort of thing.
And as for humans damaging Quel'Thalas, that is wrong on so many levels. Orcs attacked Quel'Thalas and killed her family. The Scourge burned Quel'Thalas at the behest of Ner'Zhuel and a Prince that was no longer human let alone a representative of his kingdom. Garithos was a bigot who locked up the military forces of the Blood Elves he had on hand and was little more than using the name of the Alliance, much like the Dark Horde, or Garrosh's pure 'Horde'. Jaina attacked the Blood Elves in her city because of an Orc using her kinsmen to betray her and steal a WMD.
Really, this is not a case of bad apples spoiling the opinion on pies. I cannot see Vareesa ever joining the Horde. The Alliance? That is up to chance, but never the Horde. Not with everything she can pin on them.
Post by
Rankkor
Because unlike the agents who betrayed the Sunreavers, none of they had any idea this might happen. If Benedictus's predecessor had betrayed the church and sided with the Scourge, you had better believe he would have been watched like a hawk.
No, If benedictus's predecessor had sided with the scourge, his betrayal would had been covered up by the government, just like Benedictus's involvement with the twilight hammer was covered up by the clergy. That's how hypocrite the humans are, according to them, they're prefect, and anyone who isn't, is declared an unperson. Notice how they avoid talking about the prestor family like a plague. How they hush-hush and keep quiet the injustice done to the stonemasons, and how even the betrayal of Fandral was kept a secret in darnassus.
Because Arthas was no more a Prince of Lordaeron when he sacked Quel'Thalas than Sargeras was a member of the Forger Team when he formed the Burning Legion.
Likewise Kael'thas was no longer a king for his people by the time they got to outland, or by the time he got back to azeroth.
I'll remind you that one of the first things he did when he returned back to azeroth was attack Silvermoon. How is that any different than Arthas who's first action once he returned from Northrend was to attack his own kingdom and then every neighboring kingdom on the entire continent?
What? A random schmuck? we're talking about Kael'Thas. Their king up to the literal point he tried to summon Kil'Jaedan. He has statues of himself littered around Silvermoon. He is hardly some random schmuck.
No, we're talking about sunreaver double-agents which according to you, represent what every blood elf is like, but somehow, Garithos and Jaina don't represent what every human is like.
You see, the difference here that I am trying to argue Rankorr is that the Sunreavers emphatically failed to prevent their members betraying the neutral organization they supported twice. Once is excusable, and was, but a second time? They had warning this might happen, it is part of their responsibility to act on that, and yet they failed to put in measures which would prevent it
And the alliance monarchy was played like fiddlesticks by a black dragon. Once is excusable, and was, but a second time? And yet they failed to put in measures that would had prevented it.
See how that works?
Post by
oneforthemoney
You see, the difference here that I am trying to argue Rankorr is that the Sunreavers emphatically failed to prevent their members betraying the neutral organization they supported twice. Once is excusable, and was, but a second time? They had warning this might happen, it is part of their responsibility to act on that, and yet they failed to put in measures which would prevent it
And the alliance monarchy was played like fiddlesticks by a black dragon. Once is excusable, and was, but a second time? And yet they failed to put in measures that would had prevented it.
See how that works?
Really Rank, now you're reaching. From the wowpedia page:
Shortly after the battle of Grim Batol, Lord Prestor disappeared under unusual circumstances, his chateau abandoned, his servants gone. Rumors indicate he may not have been who he claimed, and that the nobles of Lordaeron may have even been under his control for a time.
Yes, it would be. Too bad no one actually told anyone about that, with only Krasus knowing the truth and neglecting to share.
Because Arthas was no more a Prince of Lordaeron when he sacked Quel'Thalas than Sargeras was a member of the Forger Team when he formed the Burning Legion.
Likewise Kael'thas was no longer a king for his people by the time they got to outland, or by the time he got back to azeroth.
I'll remind you that one of the first things he did when he returned back to azeroth was attack Silvermoon. How is that any different than Arthas who's first action once he returned from Northrend was to attack his own kingdom and then every neighboring kingdom on the entire continent?
What are you talking about? Kael'Thas was king of his people when he left, and remained so. Which was why so many blood elves followed him to Outland. It was only after the assault that stole M'uru that Lady Liadrin renounced her allegiance to Kael'Thas and turned on him. Arthas? The minute he started killing in Capital City, which was the first public indication that he had gone completely over the edge, he was declared target number one. Let me repeat that: It took the Blood Elves being personally attacked be Kael'Thas to renounce him, even after all the evidence of his workings in Outland. Arthas was declared the enemy the second he showed his true colours. That, Rank, is the difference between these two.
Post by
Rankkor
What are you talking about? Kael'Thas was king of his people when he left, and remained so. Which was why so many blood elves followed him to Outland.
Which only happened because they didn't knew what he was doing in outland. Once the lid was blown open, they stopped him.
I'll remind you that TK is doable by horde characters too.
It was only after the assault that stole M'uru that Lady Liadrin renounced her allegiance to Kael'Thas and turned on him.
Nope. Blood elves as a whole refused to help Kael'thas when they finally reached their "promised land" (AKA: Netherstorm) denouncing him long before his attack on silvermoon.
Let me repeat that: It took the Blood Elves being personally attacked be Kael'Thas to renounce him, even after all the evidence of his workings in Outland
You got any proof of that? because I did the quests as horde where blood elves specifically target the Manaforges of the Sunhawk blood elves because they DO NOT support their king.
Kael'thas went to outland via that portal in dalaran, then sent back Rommath and a cadre of his people, to convince the rest of the people of silvermoon to come and join him in outland. This is the sole goal the elves of silvermoon worked torwards, as they believed their king was building them a paradise in a new world. They joined with the horde only as a means to an end to reach outland safely, and when they get there................ turns out their king had long forsaken them and no longer cared about them anymore as he had bigger plans in mind.
This is why all of the lackeys of Kaelthas are hostile to horde players even before Kael attacked silvermoon.
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