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Hybrid Whining
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Post by
179128
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Post by
daboss40
Ok. Let me try this again. I know people are all fired up, but thers no reason to spew some of the bull*!@# im seeing here.
@Shaggoth I stopped reading right here...
They can also save a healer a cool down, and even use shield wall and pick up an untanked boss
and this gem..
A ret paladin judging light can out heal most raid healers (with the exception to a high haste holy priest) and still do damage
When you demonstrate absolutely no knowledge of how the class you're arguing against works, no response is necessary. Let's move on.
and the ability, if required, to fill out a tank or healer spot if such is required for that fight, on top of the role they offer in DPS.
Really? This again? Where are you guys getting your information? Is there somebody out there going around telling people ret palas are gods? That we can do all three simultaniously while clipping our toenails? Again, when you argue against certain features of a class/spec, please have your information correct. You'll get a more respectable answer that way.
Let's stop building our arguments on false premises for a second and state the facts. Again:
5 Things about Ret Palas you should know before continuing to post.
1) Paladins have one cooldown called Divine Shield. It makes us immune to everything for 12 seconds, but halves our damage. There is never a point while raiding that this will make the difference between na wipe and success. Ask any paladin. At Best, It's a way to get a trash mob off your back if you aggro it. That's all. It will not save us if our tank/healer dies.
2) Paladins do not stack Int. Meaning, our heals take up at least 7% of our total mana. It also uses up a GCD, severely lowering our DPS. In addition to all that. That heal will only do about 2500 healing. Anyone here who takes basic math will easily be able to conclude that 2500 healing every 1.5 seconds for 7% mana will leave our mana drained and our tank dead very quickly. Our heals are only useful for topping us up after we judge blood/martyr.
3) We use plate? So do tanks! We win! Wait? What about our defense? Below the defense cap? What does that mean? That we're no more effective against a Raid Boss than a Rogue? Really? That sux...
4) We provide 3% crit, 3% haste and 3% damage. But it only takes one ret pally to get that. So, if there was a 2nd ret that wanted to raid, guess what buffs he'd bring? ZERO BUFFS. Maybe a BoK or BoW, but usually raids consist of enough holy and prot palas to cover these. Please try to understand this.
5) Lastly, our wipe protection. I don't use it much, as I'm usually too worried about trying to keep our tanks up if #$%^ goes wrong to even care about trying to save 30 seconds of runback. Not like that ever really works.... (see point 2)
Now that you have a better understanding of what ret palas are really about, try to explain how these "earth-shattering" abilities justify me never being able to out-damage a well geared and skillful pure dps?
Post by
205531
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Post by
daboss40
Really? This again? Where are you guys getting your information? Is there somebody out there going around telling people ret palas are gods? That we can do all three simultaniously while clipping our toenails? Again, when you argue against certain features of a class/spec, please have your information correct. You'll get a more respectable answer that way.
/sigh
That you refuse to acknowledge Dual Spec (or Hearth-To-Dalaran-Respec-And-Get-Summoned-Back) and your other two specs doesn't mean that they cease to exist.
I understand that you can do that. Of course, that would imply that a player worked twice as hard getting sufficient gear for both specs. Even, then you're talking about 2 different specs with 2 different purposes. What does that have to do with a ret paladin being able to do any tanking or healing as a ret paladin?
Post by
205531
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Post by
Squishalot
Really? This again? Where are you guys getting your information? Is there somebody out there going around telling people ret palas are gods? That we can do all three simultaniously while clipping our toenails? Again, when you argue against certain features of a class/spec, please have your information correct. You'll get a more respectable answer that way.
/sigh
That you refuse to acknowledge Dual Spec (or Hearth-To-Dalaran-Respec-And-Get-Summoned-Back) and your other two specs doesn't mean that they cease to exist.
From someone who does know where you're coming from...
There's one key point that you've been missing in your comments so far, Mittoo, and that is the time cost invested in learning how to play each spec.
Between the different Pure DPS specs, there isn't a significant difference in playing style. Following a high DPS rotation is moreorless the same, whether you're using skills A, B and C, or X, Y and Z.
There's a lot more to learn if a Ret pally is expected to be capable of tanking and healing, let alone practically capable of it (in terms of the raid having time to sit and wait while someone hearths and respecs, and having a nice set of level-appropriate gear on the side, just for the occasion).
I would never trust myself to heal in Naxx, just because I was taken along as a DPS and because I'm a Paladin. For starters, I've touched Holy only once, as a wee L20-30 Paladin who thought that less pushback on healing would be nice. Secondly, I don't have the gear - if quest blues and a couple of random Heroic epics are what's required to heal a raid, then great, my gear's ready.
Finally - I have absolutely no idea what to do as a healer. Spam FoL? Spam HL? Do I use Beacon? Should I save Holy Shock for certain moments, or use it on every CD?
I certainly wouldn't trust most Ret pallies to be my off-tank - no matter how much Googling someone does, all they're going to learn at short notice is to spam 9-6. And they probably won't have 540 defence either.
That's a lot more that you're expecting from a hybrid player than from a Pure DPS player, who really only needs to learn about one playing style. As with the kitchen examples before, once you start cooking, different cuisines isn't that bad. Switching whole roles in the restaurant is completely different, and not really expected.
(random aside - I've just spent some time this evening reading about a chef of a small restaurant who's gotten into an online battle with a food blogger - a perfect example of how kitchen skills don't make it out the double doors into people skills!)
Post by
daboss40
A ret paladin
offers 3% crit, 3% haste, 3% damage, an improved Ret aura, an extra Blessing, various forms of damage mitigation both for himself and others, wipe prevention and 'emergency' abilities, and the ability, if required, to fill out a tank or healer spot if such is required for that fight, on top of the role they offer in DPS.
Maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but I really looks like you're saying that a ret paladin, if required, can fill out a tank or healer spot if that is what's required for a fight, on top of the role they offer as DPS. It's not even like you mentioned they can only do that through respeccing (which still doesn't justify a lower dps IMO). It just says that rets can tank or heal if they need to, on top of the dps they do.
I dunno. Maybe I misread it.
Post by
140590
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Post by
178407
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Post by
299926
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Post by
Squishalot
A ret paladin judging light outheals raid healers. Ret paladins always dps with judgement of light over other specs because they have 100 percent judgement uptime. That's all I said, and you somehow took that as me saying you were actually casting heals.
The point is, Judgement of Light and all the other raid buffs allows for only 1 Retribution Paladin to come along for the ride. Suggesting that Ret Pallys can do a healer's raid healing job is false, because any additional Ret pallies don't have any further effect.
I think the assumption is that the player has previous experience and gear to match for their appropriate dual spec. It's common to grab gear for your offspec if your tanks/healers have no need of it. As for experience, the game is by no means hard. Just read EJ's post for whatever spec, do an alt night in naxx 10 or w/e and you're ready to sub in as a different spec. I did this with prot/ret, being the OT on bosses that needed it and dpsing when it wasn't needed.
And on a random note, I like your analogy in the similar thread in the PvE forums.
Thanks :) Shamelessly pilfered from this thread. I do believe, however, that if Blizzard is going to be taking that approach, that hybrids should do less DPS in their DPS spec compared to non-hybrids, because they can learn a new role (not just talking Paladins - Warriors have it worse than we do), then they should probably make the pure DPS classes a bit harder to play, to offset. Perhaps create several encounters that actually do require mages, hunters, rogues, warlocks to respec and learn a new way of fighting.
On a side note - would anyone ever dream of asking a Warlock to go back and respec Demonology so that they could off-tank with their Voidwalker?
This thread needs to die, and needed to do so about 40 posts ago.
Please for the love of god, let it die, or give me a synopsis so people don't have to sort through the knee high QQ water levels.
Summary:
1) Rets add utility above their DPS, so the DPS number shouldn't matter.
Counter: That applies only for the first Ret (fine for Heroics/10mans). Every additional Ret pally is gimped, because they don't add nearly as much utility as the first Ret pally.
2) Pure classes do more DPS because they're not allowed to tank/heal, it'd be unfair to leave them out, since everyone would just take Pallies along for the versatility.
Counter: Pure Ret Paladins can't tank or heal, if they don't have Prot/Holy as their dual spec.
Response: Pure Ret Paladins can run home and respec, and be summoned back.
Counter: They may not have the skills to tank/heal. And it's not fair to expect them to learn 3 roles when Pure DPS only has to learn one.
Analogies:
1) If you hire someone for a job, you'll hire someone who specialises (has done 3 courses, rather than just 1 course) in the appropriate area.
Counter: Unlike real life, in WoW, classes can only use one course (spec) at a time.
2) Pure DPS can learn 3 styles of cooking, Ret DPS can learn 1 style of cooking. This suggests that the Pure DPS will do better generally, because they can adapt better to each fight. But if Pure specialises in French cooking (i.e only learns 1 spec), and Ret knows how to do Italian cooking, then they'll both do a pretty dodgy stir fry, and should be equally as bad.
3) You wouldn't ask your striker to respec to goalkeeper, just because you needed one. You'd go hunt around for a new goalkeeper.
Counter: Well, who knows. Maybe Christiano Ronaldo would actually make a good goalkeeper ;p
Post by
205531
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Post by
Squishalot
Why would there be more than one paladin? After all, with 3 possible specs, surely Priests and Shamans would make better healers than Paladins?
That's the problem with that mentality.
Post by
322291
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Post by
205531
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
daboss40
A ret paladin judging light outheals raid healers. Ret paladins always dps with judgement of light over other specs because they have 100 percent judgement uptime. That's all I said, and you somehow took that as me saying you were actually casting heals. AND YOU DO HAVE A self COOLDOWN (the exact same idea as the warrior's shield wall, hence me calling it that), it's called divine protection, which because you are so retarded, you don't realize. Another cool down that you have is divine sacrifice, which is what I was talking about when I said that you can save healers a cd, and although it has a cooldown of 5mins, which is still very good.
You sir, don't know your own class. I'm done with this thread, bunch of whiners and qq'ers. "Omg I wantz teh top deepz an' da utility, plz blizzard halp." This thread proves paladins aren't people, just monkeys.
Firstly, show me a damage meter parse in which a ret pally is out healing every (or even most) raid healers in a raid. need to see that before I can even remotely believe you.
Secondly, I am aware of what divine protection is. I am also aware that it's strength comes with the assumption that the user of the spell (usually a tank) is defense capped and has a decent amount of avoidance. A ret paladin will have none of these. What is means is that a ret pally using divine protection will get 4-shot, instead of getting 2-shot as would usually be the case. They won't avoid any damage, and will be
very
vulnerable to crits. So, I ask again: How is this utility? We have a lot of things going for us, true. But being able to save a raid with our Divine Protection is not one of them.
If a raid ever gets to a point where the Raid leader says: "Quickly, ret pally, use Divine Protection and tank!", your raid has bigger issues than why the ret pally is doing more dps than the pure dps.
I think this silly argument comes down to peoples' philosophies on what hybrid DPS classes are there for. If you think that our role is to provide buffs for the 'real' DPS classes, like we did in classic WoW, then I can see why you're having a hard time getting used to this new system. If you can get your mind past that and start thinking that maybe Hybrid DPS classes should be able to DPS like the pures can, then the changes BLizz made in WotLK should appeal to you.
I say again, if you find yourself losing to a hybrid DPS, L2P.
Post by
140590
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Post by
205531
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Why would there be more than one paladin? After all, with 3 possible specs, surely Priests and Shamans would make better healers than Paladins?
That's the problem with that mentality.
With 6-7 healers, you could have all five types of healers with the ability to add one or two more depending on preference and skill of the people concerned.
My point was more tongue in cheek / explaining the irony of the situation.
If Blizzard took healers the same way that they took DPS, then you wouldn't ever take Paladin or Druid healers along, because Priests/Shamans would be more effective (dual hybrid rather than triple hybrid, so healing should be better, since they have less roles to play in the raid).
Can you see how the double standards work?
Personally, I think that the DPS should probably be the same, and the raid-enhancing utility should be left to the 'pure' classes. So increased haste auras should belong to Rogues, increased crit auras should belong to Hunters, raid buffs like BoM should belong to Mages, etc (though with different names - think Bull's Strength from AD&D). Thus, the onus is to bring the Pure DPS classes first and foremost for the DPS utility, then filling the raid with whoever you like, where everyone is on an even footing.
In an ideal world, if you could redesign the WoW balance - what would you think of that, Mittoo?
Post by
312419
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