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Hybrid Whining
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Post by
PureGold
Honestly classes that complain are pretty much saying "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!"
As a side note, my guild brought 2 ret pally to EVERY raid and always will because not only do they have good dps but because on Yogg Hand of Protection is amazingly useful at saving a healer/tank/dps in phase 2.
Post by
140590
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Post by
Rouen
From this perspective, shouldn't a Paladin's Ret spec be rather great at DPS, while the pure DPS classes are not, because they can choose to have different types of DPS?
With philosophy, you can look at any idea any way you want and turn it into something favorable to your arguement, but the current design is how Blizzard meant it to be. Take this as a real world example.
Computers
____________
You have two people who can take any three classes in college they want. One person takes a class in Literature, History, and one on computers. The other person takes three computer courses.
Now, who is going to be the better system admin? Same idea, the person who specializes in it. Yes, everyone gets multiple specs, like how a mage has three kinds of DPS. Just like any other class, each has it's strengths and weaknesses. This is why a pure DPS class is designed to out-DPS a hybrid class and always will if the player knows how to run the class.
If you want top DPS as a ret pally? Say if blizzard was going to humor that wish, they would take away one of your bubbles and holy light, with flash of light only being available with Art of War Proc'ed. I could see that working if maybe they change some of the talents, one removes your holy light but gives you attack bonuses to your abilities and another removes your Divine Shield or HoP for another attack ability. Since Blizz is removing Seal of the Martyr/Blood, you wouldn't need to blow it to heal from recoil damage.
Post by
Squishalot
Rouen - see the L100 heroic abilities thread - one of my suggestions was basically to give Ret pallies an 'Avatar' form, that would limit their utility to solely Retribution skills (and Exorcism/Consecration, can't remember what category they're in), so no Flash of Light procs, no Hands of Protection/Salvation/Sacrifice, no Divine Shield/Divine Sacrifice/Lay on Hands emergency buttons.
The problem with your computing example: before 3.1, everybody was allowed to choose one of three courses.
Paladins can choose from Literature, History and Desktop Programming.
Warriors can choose from Desktop Programming, History and Data Warehouse Design.
Warlocks can choose from Database Management, Web-based Programming and Computing Theory.
If you want a system admin, remember that a Warlock won't have all three - they'll only be able to do one of those courses. Ditto for a Paladin and a Warrior. None of them will 'specialise' by having all three courses, since at the end of the day, they only get one degree coming out of uni.
That's why it seems unfair to complain. The example suggests that if someone was capable of doing Medicine, Computing or Law, that you'd give the sysadmin job to someone who was only capable of doing Computing, despite the fact that they've both enrolled into a computing course.
Edit:
Rereading, I think I can sort of see what you're saying, by Warlocks having 3 different DPS'ing options, they can choose the most optimal one, which is likely to therefore outdo a Paladin's 'general DPS' option. That would make sense if they changed spec in the middle of instances to tailor their damage for the next fight. But I don't know anyone who does, do you?
Post by
140590
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Post by
Synectics
I guess that I should note that I completely understand what Rouen and kevinjohn3d mean. It's really not that I don't understand the design. It's that I don't agree with it.
I also want to really stress that I don't want Ret Paladins to be the highest DPS on the meters, Rouen. That's not at all what I mean.
Note this: back in BC, Paladins were healers. Period. They weren't always the favorite tank, and Ret was a joke. Imagine how someone felt when they rolled a Paladin, hearing that if they spec'd Ret they would be a DPS, only to find that no one wanted them because they were horrible at it.
If nothing else, one thing is for sure:
a highly skilled Paladin should ALWAYS beat out a mediocre Mage.
If a very skilled Paladin is with a very skilled Mage, then sure, I can see the Mage winning in pure DPS. But that's because the Paladin also used LoH to keep the tank alive when a healer went down, threw Hand of Protection on another healer, bubbled to get through a high damage phase, and did all of this while doing a good amount of DPS.
It's NOT because
he came in with two talent trees that could allow him to be a tank or a healer. It's because he's a
DPS
who is playing his class to its full potential.
EDIT:
If you want a system admin, remember that a Warlock won't have all three - they'll only be able to do one of those courses. Ditto for a Paladin and a Warrior. None of them will 'specialise' by having all three courses, since at the end of the day, they only get one degree coming out of uni.
Squish really nailed it there, took my thoughts and put it in actual understandable words. Thanks, Squish; now get outta my head! XD
Post by
49557
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Post by
228908
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Post by
Squishalot
Caean, is your mage expected to go from Frost to Arcane, because the next fight suits it?
If it does, then I can understand that it should do more DPS than a Paladin all the time, because they're always tailoring their abilities to meet the fight better than a general Ret spec can.
If they don't, and they stick to one single spec, then it's only fair that the Pally which sticks to one single spec should also contribute comparably.
Post by
Synectics
Well they can umm....yeah....they can do damage and CC...but *and this is key*
their fundamental role in the raid does not change -- ever.
Guess what. My Ret Paladin's role does not change -- ever. I don't bring multiple sets of armor with me, because I don't have a tanking or healing set, because *and this is key*
I am not a tank nor am I a healer.
Post by
Squishalot
Actually, in terms of all these analogies, I think you've better explained another point.
Hybrid whining isn't the best use of these explanations.
The justification for Paladins to wear Cloth gear is the best use =)
As far as I'm concerned though, using kevinjohn3d's analogy, when a Ret Paladin comes into the kitchen, all he can do is cook. He can't wait, and he can't be a cashier, because he's not trained to be, he doesn't have the skills to be. And he doesn't have the fancy getup to be either.
Like I said, to turn the computing example to your cooking one, suppose that I went to a Chef's academy, but could have gone to a Finance school or a Hospitality course. Should I be rejected from the position on the grounds that I could have chosen a different career path, or should I be rejected on the merits of my own cooking ability?
And to put it back in Blizzard's territory, should my cooking training be made to be inferior to other people who have a choice of three cooking courses to go on? If so, then how will I ever find a job?
Post by
TheJohan
I giggle when i read this thread. Love the analogies.
I myself see no particular reason why a retadin or boomkin should not be able to toss out equal damage to a rouge or mage.
Ive leveled my paladin as prot. I really dont have the skills to dps as much as a skilled retadin, even if i have the same gear. To equal someone used to retrispec, id have to play retri for some time and get used to it.
A huntard will never do the same amount of damage as a real hunter.
An ebayed char will most likely end up doing less dps than someone who played the class 1-80.
Get my point? If a retridin and a rouge are equally skilled and equally geared, they should make equal damage.
Post by
179128
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Post by
140590
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Post by
228908
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Post by
Bloodspeaker
A point thats just occured to me. There are no pure tank, pure healer classes. All classes that can tank or heal have awyas had the option of doing dps at least. Alright it might have been crap dps, but it was still dps.
So, following the theory that all hybrid classes should be slightly worse than 'pure' classes, doesn't that mean that all healers and tanks should be a little bit worse than any of the pure dps classes? I mean that the game should be imbalanced towards pure dps.
ps. i know this isn't gonna happen. it just seemed an interesting theoretical point.
Post by
Synectics
We have the option to be more than what we are, they don't and therefore want to be the best at what they are.
Rolling a "pure" DPS doesn't mean that's all you're made for. I know plenty of people who chose Mage over Paladins because they liked being able to offer people conjured foods, portals, and hey -- who doesn't want to have the option of hurling fireballs, blizzards, or
arcane
magic missiles? Same with Hunters -- some people love just the concept of having a pet, and will scour everywhere for that perfect looking pet.
The thing is, if you wanted to tank, you know you shouldn't have rolled a Mage. Likewise, if you wanted to hurl fireballs, you shouldn't have rolled a Paladin. It's a decision you make when you roll your character -- complaining that you have 3 DPS specs that are all viable while someone else has a tank, healing, and DPS spec has to do with this initial decision.
I could completely understand someone complaining that one of their three specs isn't viable -- if a Mage complained that their Frost spec wasn't that great in any role, then I'd say it needs fixed. So shouldn't a Paladin get to complain if one of his specs isn't keeping up with everyone else's?
All of that said -- I think Ret Paladins definitely have their place right now. They're not leading the DPS meters, but they offer so much utility it makes up for it, I'm not complaining.
EDIT:
That's a limitation you are deliberately choosing to place on your role in a raid setting.
So was rolling a "pure" DPS class. See above on initial character rolls.
Post by
jeddic
The problem with this argument is that it's not only applied to DPS. Some warrior tanks in the past said, "It's fine that pally and druid tanks aren't as good, because they can spec to heal or dps." But why should a hybrid class be able to heal just as well as a priest, or tank as well as warriors, but not be able to DPS as well as rogues? I personally don't see why a hybrid should have to work harder than a "pure" dps class to get the same results.
@ kevinjohn3d
Your analogy is basically flawed, in that these are not people we're discussing, but in game characters. Each has chosen what abilities and talents to have (when they chose class) and each has worked to get gear to fulfill they're chosen role.
If two people come to you to work as cooks, you don't say to one, "I see you had a chance to go to waiter school, but chose to become a cook? Because I need a waiter, I want you to go learn how, and come back for the job." That would be ridiculous. You, as employer or raid leader, pick the person who will make you most successful, on the basis that they are better (as a player) at what they do, and will work harder for you. The other person continues to look for a job (raid).
Post by
jeddic
@ caean
When someone roles a rogue, they have deliberately placed a limitation on their ability to perform in a raid.
Post by
114588
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