The Zen Garden: (Off-Topic)

Publicado por Interest

Publicado por Thror

Hello Monks! I hope you'll forgive me being on topic for a moment but it's a very quick question about Monk Tanking.
I'm only 38 right now but I couldn't see, in the abilities I have or will get eventually, an increase to my Armor (like druids get). Is this just covered by the 25% reduced damage of Sturdy Ox or am I missing something?
Stagger is a mechanic that substitutes for the armor modifier for Monks. As you may have noticed, it is a passive perk of our Ox Stance, and it converts a portion of incoming damage into a DoT. Now, the problem is, Stagger is not really mitigation if you don't use Brebaje purificador, which is obtained at level 75. :-/

Publicado por Interest

I disagree. I still think Stagger is more like block or Savage Defense or Blood Shield, if only because it directly scales off Mastery. Technically it "could" be, but eh.

Publicado por Thror

The difference is that you are analyzing "what does and doesn't scale off mastery" and I am analyzing "monk mitigation". Your argument is too narrow minded. Also wrong, because Druid's armour also directly scales off Mastery (the Savage Defense you are referencing doesn't exist anymore...), so I might as well be just likening it to that (I am not.).

Stagger is a modifier that reduces all incoming damage by 20-40-60% (+ mastery) and converts it into a purgable dot. It is reliable, it is up even when you are stunned, it is the closest form of mitigation we have to armour.

Publicado por asakawa

Okay, that's interesting, thanks for the input. Is this indicative of the move towards more active mitigation that Blizzard wants to make d'you think?

So, Blackout Kick gives me another 20% but you said 20-40-60, what do I get later that takes it up to 60?

I'm really glad I made a Monk Tank when I came back to the game. Part of what was keeping me away from the whole game was the idea of having 12 85s that needed to be levelled to 90. Like, I can't do that again. I think I need to go down to a single main and then just stop playing when I run out of things to do instead of endlessly alting.
So, with that in mind, I'm having a blast with this Monk! It's was a very arbitrary choice (my friend was making a healer and we wanted to LFG) but it turned out an excellent one.

(btw Thror, when's the Brewmaster tanking guide coming?... come on... you know you want to ^_^)(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##

Publicado por Thror

Okay, that's interesting, thanks for the input. Is this indicative of the move towards more active mitigation that Blizzard wants to make d'you think?
Absolutely. Monks are almost 100% reliant on active mitigation. They do not have the large armour buffer other tanks have, their health pools are not buffed as much as DK's, and even most of their avoidance comes from various buffs that have to be activated and held active.

So, Blackout Kick gives me another 20% but you said 20-40-60, what do I get later that takes it up to 60?
During Brebaje reconstituyente it is increased by another 20%. Fortifying Brew is a very solid shield-wall type ability.

(btw Thror, when's the Brewmaster tanking guide coming?... come on... you know you want to ^_^)
I could use some better sources. I know the stat priorities and everything, but I have nothing to cite.

But yes, the guide is definitely coming.

Publicado por asakawa

But yes, the guide is definitely coming.
Made my day. Loved your Druid one.

Publicado por LookOut

But yes, the guide is definitely coming.
Made my day. Loved your Druid one.

His bear guide wasn't made at the start of Cataclysm though ;)

Publicado por Thror

*rolls sleeves*(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Make it so!

Publicado por Thror

So... turns out dual wielding is the best way to go for Brewmaster monks. Who would have thought? Moar reasoning coming soon.

Also this is what I am going to look like when I complete my transmog set. Exalted with Shado-Pan will take a while.

Publicado por asakawa

That's a surprise. I haven't given it a ton of thought and certainly no experimentation but I'd assumed that the 40% haste on 2H versus the 40% auto-attack damage would have put 2H ahead by a good margin due to Elusive Brew. This is based on a prior assumption that the two are balanced for Elusive Brew stacks before that 40% haste is added which of course may not be the case since it's a base increase for all Monks.

I'm still at just 65 and have played around a little with 2 x Maces or the Agi Staff and always went back to the Staff due to my above assumption.
I look forward to enlightenment ^_^

Publicado por Thror

Elusive Brew stacks are normalized based on weapon speed, so you should basically get the same amount of stacks over a period of time independent on which weapon you are using. The reason why DW is better is that they still attack more often than the staff, and they are much better at consistently upkeeping your stack of Elusive Brew. As in, there is actually a risk that your stack will fall off, and that risk is greater when you use a slower weapon. Based on reports from various testers, DW has a 10% advantage at upkeeping the uptime of Elusive Brew stacks over 2H.

Then again, 2H weapons have more stats than two 1H's total. It is not much, but it's something. Generally, from what I read so far, it is good to use 2H weapons for cutting edge hard mode progression, because it grants a slightly higher health pool than DW, and health pools are pretty important in that sort of raiding. On the other hand, DW is better at overall mitigation, because the upkeep of Elusive Brew is more beneficial to us than having 120 more stamina. It is pretty similar to the reasoning for Stamina and Agility stacking for Bears (2H being similar to Stam stacking and DW being similar to Agi stacking), except the differences are much, much smaller.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter whether you DW or use a 2H if you raid content where min-maxing is not mandatory. That means, almost all the time.

(Mitigation aside, DW also does more DPS.)

(All of the DW vs. 2H discussion is only meaningful if you have access to 1 handers and a 2 hander of equal item level. Otherwise, it is always better to use the weapon that is higher.)

btw I updated the transmogrification link above, the one i posted originally was incomplete

Publicado por asakawa

Ah cool, so the normalisation does happen after the inclusion of the 40% haste buff. That's good to know.

Now my only issue is that Monks actually use their weapons so little >.<

Publicado por Thror

The worst thing is that when you use fist weapons, you do not even get to see them, as they are not even holstered. At least with a staff, I could see it on my back, and I could see it's model and stuff. But now I have these badass fists, and they never get pulled out. Fists are also the only weapon type that doesn't even show when you Jab.

Publicado por asakawa

Publicado por Adamsm

It requires more hit for white damage, same as rogues, Enhance shamans and fury warriors; regular(yellow) attacks though, should be alright at the standard hit and expertise cap.

Publicado por Thror

Is there an impact on the stats you want when dual wielding? I left the game for a while so my memory's sketchy but dual wielding requires more hit right? And it seems like hit and (full! including parry?) expertise capping is suggested. So does DW require more stats to be effective?
Yeah, white attacks miss more, but it doesn't matter really. White attacks use a single roll system, which means that even when you do not get enough hit, you still crit as much as you would with a hit capped 2 hander, so generation of Elusive Brew stacks is not affected.

We are going for the hit cap (7,5%) and Expertise hard cap (15%) whether we DW or use a 2H. It is because Chi generation has the greatest impact on our mitigation, and a missed Keg Smash is simply devastating.

It isn't very hard to cap your Exp with current level gear btw. Especially when you use some of the Expertise gems.

Publicado por asakawa

White attacks use a single roll system, which means that even when you do not get enough hit, you still crit as much as you would with a hit capped 2 hander, so generation of Elusive Brew stacks is not affected.
Precisely the detail I needed!

It isn't very hard to cap your Exp with current level gear btw. Especially when you use some of the Expertise gems.
Yeah, it looks like a massive number but I'm still stuck in a pre-MoP mindset with the stat numbers.

Publicado por Interest

Publicado por asakawa

So there's been a nerf to Vengeance apparently which results in a switch over to Haste and Crit being favoured. Bonkers! I'd only just got my head around hard-capping Exp.

The Zen Garden: (Off-Topic)

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