Diese Seite macht ausgiebigen Gebrauch von JavaScript.
Bitte aktiviert JavaScript in Eurem Browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
The Cataclysm Shockadin Guide!
Antwort verfassen
Zur Forenübersicht zurückkehren
Beitrag von
pezz
I agree with Spirit as your main stat. Shockadins and healers both lost almost all of the old mana regenerating tricks, only you spend 30% of your base mana per cast on filler between instants (exo) and I spend 9% of my base mana per (much longer) cast between instants (holy light), and I don't have to worry about getting mana burned. I think the biggest problem you're going to have, one that might potentially kill the spec at low gear levels on its own, is mana. For the first time in a long time, it sounds like damage is definitely not going to be your biggest concern.
Edit two: I fail at reading. All of your spells are cheap, unless you decide to spam FoL. I would focus on either int or spirit, depending on how often you find yourself casting FoL. I would also definitely NOT miss the spirit to hit talent, to avoid having to work on both.
I don't understand your treatment of Haste and of JotP, though. Presumably you're going to be casting quite a lot of Exos, and maybe some FoLs if you get into trouble. That's a ton of hasted heals for you right there. Further, doesn't haste still reduce the GCD in Cata? It should speed up your instants as well. And THAT sounds pretty nice for a shockadin.
In your final build, I'd drop the points in Guardian's Favor and put them into Paragon of Virtue. I'd rather have a 40 second barkskin than a 3 minute HoP. And aside from that, it also brings your burst damage phases closer together.
I don't know how much good that glyph of Light of Dawn is going to do you. Do you
really
see yourself casting that to very good effect every 20 seconds? I tend to think of battlegrounds as pretty difficult places to get a nice cone of people in need of healing like that, and obviously it's a pretty useless ability in arena. That also takes up a lot of holy power, and you're already using huge amounts keeping Inquisition up. I personally would use any left over HP on WoGs. You could replace it with the +5 yards range for HoJ glyph.
Edit: I said I would use excess HP on WoGs, but didn't really explain why.
You probably want to shoot for 100% Inquisition uptime. You'll never get it, but you want it. It requires at least one HP every four seconds. HS, barring Daybreak procs, is good for one every six seconds. I can immediately see a problem. And you don't have ToR to force more. That means you're essentially relying on abusing Blessed Life (i.e., abusing getting beat on) to keep your version of Savage Roar up. If you need to get beat on to maximize your DPS, you're probably going to want to use any extra finishers you can manage on healing yourself, since it's too punishing to your damage output to use HS on yourself, FoL has a ruinous mana cost, and HL and DL are out of the question without Clarity of Purpose (not that I recommend you take that talent, you're right to avoid it, I'm just saying you have problems using those heals without it).
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
I agree with Spirit as your main stat. Shockadins and healers both lost almost all of the old mana regenerating tricks, only you spend 30% of your base mana per cast on filler between instants (exo) and I spend 9% of my base mana per (much longer) cast between instants (holy light), and I don't have to worry about getting mana burned. I think the biggest problem you're going to have, one that might potentially kill the spec at low gear levels on its own, is mana. For the first time in a long time, it sounds like damage is definitely not going to be your biggest concern.
If by 30% you mean
7.5%
:P
Beitrag von
pezz
Oh wow. I thought that that was a proc for some reason. That means it's only very slightly higher MPS than HL.
Going back to edit my fail.
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
Also:
You probably want to shoot for 100% Inquisition uptime. You'll never get it, but you want it. It requires at least one HP every four seconds. HS, barring Daybreak procs, is good for one every six seconds. I can immediately see a problem. And you don't have ToR to force more. That means you're essentially relying on abusing Blessed Life (i.e., abusing getting beat on) to keep your version of Savage Roar up. If you need to get beat on to maximize your DPS, you're probably going to want to use any extra finishers you can manage on healing yourself, since it's too punishing to your damage output to use HS on yourself, FoL has a ruinous mana cost on an already mana-tight spec, and HL and DL are out of the question without Clarity of Purpose (not that I recommend you take that talent, you're right to avoid it, I'm just saying you have problems using those heals without it).
Why not a CS? It might be worth it to get that third Holy Power and for perhaps stacking SoT perhaps? I don't know if that will be viable mana-wise of course.
This would be strictly for pve of course...pvp shouldn't have the problem.
Beitrag von
Arannia
The reason I avoid haste is actually because of another main point in your arguement - mana. It's far more mana efficient to prioritize +damage talents than haste talents, as spell power (and damage talents) boost the amount of damage you can do per point of mana. Haste, on the other hand, increases the amount of mana you burn for every point of damage (though enables you to toss out damage that much quicker).
Haste is bad for your mana. I'm not saying avoid it. I'm just saying don't prioritize it. Not yet.
Another thing - I'm confused about why you don't have to worry about getting mana burned. Can you clarify this?
The reason I think Guardian's Favor > Paragon of Virtue, is because of the Hand of Freedom buff. 4% unmolested movement speed is a lot, and can be used to support your team mates too. Divine Protection cannot, and does activate Forberance, disabling us from our Divine Shield.
I do agree with your Light of Dawn point though, the scenario I was imagining was bottlenecks in, shall we say, the bridge in AV, but come to think of it, that does NOT happen that often (Though let's face it, in that scenario, this glyph is OP. The ability, unglyphed is OP. Everything about the ability is OP!).
HOWEVER. The 5 extra yards on Hammer of Justice is NOT better than it. I'd take
Divine Plea
or
Cleansing
before I'd take that.
Reason why I'd never take the Hammer of Justice is because it almost never comes into play. Divine Plea and Cleansing can be counted on to help save our mana (
Divine Plea
is dismal now, but at least we can pop it out of combat, and reap 5% extra mana.
Cleanse
is very expensive now.
Why not a CS? It might be worth it to get that third Holy Power and for perhaps stacking SoT perhaps? I don't know if that will be viable mana-wise of course.
This would be strictly for pve of course...pvp shouldn't have the problem.
Crusader Strike will be handy for PvE Shockadins (though some theorycraft on someone elses part will need to be done to determine if it's worth using Crusader Strike to generate the HP necessary to use Inquisition, instead of spamming exorcism, waiting for Holy Shock to come off cooldown for our third HP, and letting Inquisition fall off in the meanwhile. Is it a boost to our DPS, or not?). However, for the meantime, this is a PvP (and levelling) Shockadin discussion, and as such I have not mentioned it (Crusader Strike -can- be used whilst silenced though. Just a note).
I'm also not even sure if I'll ever get into a PvE Shockadin debate. Maybe a few patches after launch, when it's okay to be sub-optimal in heroics, but straight away I'm not sure it's going to be a good idea to be anything other than a healer, DPS, or tank in heroics, and not a mixture. I'll certainly give it a try though and see if the flexibilty the Shockadin spec offers is useful in a heroic scenario. The 5th man, kind of.
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
Like I said, not having enough holy charges shouldn't be a problem in pvp, so I was just providing a possible solution to pezz's point.
Beitrag von
pezz
Another thing - I'm confused about why you don't have to worry about getting mana burned. Can you clarify this?
Ah, in that paragraph when I said 'you' I meant shockadins and when I said 'I' I meant holy paladins.
The reason I think Guardian's Favor > Paragon of Virtue, is because of the Hand of Freedom buff. 4% unmolested movement speed is a lot, and can be used to support your team mates too. Divine Protection cannot, and does activate Forberance, disabling us from our Divine Shield.
Hmm, HoF had a nerf I didn't notice, so that's going from 6 seconds to four seconds. Not as bad as I thought, but I still think the biggest use for that skill is breaking existent debuffs.
As for forbearance:
Gottesschild
and
http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=498
.
Those are from the Cata page. The tooltips seem to suggest that Divine Protection is not going to have anything to do with forbearance from now on, which makes sense given that it's been nerfed in line with other tank CDs.
Why not a CS? It might be worth it to get that third Holy Power and for perhaps stacking SoT perhaps? I don't know if that will be viable mana-wise of course.
This would be strictly for pve of course...pvp shouldn't have the problem.
Crusader Strike will be handy for PvE Shockadins (though some theorycraft on someone elses part will need to be done to determine if it's worth using Crusader Strike to generate the HP necessary to use Inquisition, instead of spamming exorcism, waiting for Holy Shock to come off cooldown for our third HP, and letting Inquisition fall off in the meanwhile. Is it a boost to our DPS, or not?). However, for the meantime, this is a PvP Shockadin discussion, and as such I have not mentioned it (Crusader Strike -can- be used whilst silenced though. Just a note).
At least conceptually, I would imagine that CS would be the better choice when under threat of getting locked out of holy, but not worth doing over Exo otherwise, even for the HP. It also probably has something to do with what seals you run.
Beitrag von
Arannia
Another thing - I'm confused about why you don't have to worry about getting mana burned. Can you clarify this?
Ah, in that paragraph when I said 'you' I meant shockadins and when I said 'I' I meant holy paladins.
I know. Why do Shockadins have to worry about getting mana burned more than Healadins?
Beitrag von
pezz
Mostly I was thinking about PvP versus PvE, but I forgot that that part of the discussion was only in my head.
Beitrag von
XxOmuraxX
Shockadin = normal Holy Paladin with all the dps talents taken. Blizz made healers able to dps... Shockadin lovers gonna love!
Don't listen Aestu, he has some kind of pessimistic (sry im french idk if this word exist :P) point of view.
If you play a Shockadin in bg, having fun, getting kills and healing others why would it be wrong?
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
Well, after extensive testing, I have to conclude that they are completely not viable in pve content, at least as far as dps is concerned. Using optimal spec, rotation, and pre-raid gear, I managed 2.5k sustained dps. In the same gear, most dps classes are doing 7-8k.
Beitrag von
pezz
What did you find to be the difference between spamming CS for enough HP to keep Inquisition up and spamming Exo unbuffed?
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
Just spamming exo was better, and only going for the two stack.
Beitrag von
pezz
How does the two stacks figure? At a very cursory glance, it's more GCDs spent for no additional uptime.
The two stack rotation would go:
HS -> filler* -> filler -> filler -> (HS -> Inquisition ->
filler
->
filler
->
HS
->
filler
-> filler -> filler) -> repeat ad nauseum, rotation normalizes.
If I added it up right, everything in bold benefits from inquisition. (although that third to last filler has .5 seconds of breathing room. A knockback or two + some latency will push it out of Inquisition).
Alternatively we have: (HS -> filler* -> filler -> filler) x2 -> (HS -> Inquisition ->
filler
->
filler
->
HS
->
filler
->
filler
->
filler
->
HS
->filler -> filler -> filler) -> repeat ad nauseum, rotation normalizes.
Again, bold = inquisition. There's no mention of 'might or might not' here since that last HS should be cast and then Inquisition should expire simultaneously with the GCD clearing again, or, you have 1.5 seconds of wiggle room.
So, uptime percentages. Two stacks has 50% uptime of Inquisition on HS, and either 40 or 60% uptime on Exo, assuming you never have to heal. Three stacks has 66% uptime for HS, and 62.5% uptime for filler.
Of course, this all assumes PvE, or PvP where the shockadin isn't being attacked. But in those situations, stacking Inquisition up to three stacks seems to be the clear winner. With Blessed Life procs, I'm inclined to say that given these numbers extremely high Inquisition uptime is going to be easier than I thought, though.
As an aside: I was very wrong about haste. You're locked to 6 seconds Holy Shocks whatever you do. If at some absurd stage of gearing you can get enough haste to knock the GCD down to a second though, that would be pretty nice.
*I say filler in the context of a situation where you're switching between FoL, Exo, and various other instants as the situation requires. Obviously on a target dummy filler = Exo.
Beitrag von
Synectics
Just wanna give my support to the return of Shockadins, and early thanks for all of your theorycrafting. Haters can hate, and they can get Holy Shocked as well.
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
I'm not sure I follow your diagrams, so I'm going to write them out as I did my rotations.
Inq. at 1 HP:
> Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Inq at 2 HP:
> Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Exo
> Exo > Exo > HS > Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Exo
> Exo > Exo > HS
>
Inq at 3 HP:
> Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Exo
>
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
> Exo > Exo > Exo > HS >
Inq >
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
>
Exo
>
Exo
>
Exo
>
HS
> Exo > Exo > Exo > HS
>
There are your three options. The opening brackets are the wind up, then I continued each out for two complete rotations, underlining the second full one.
In the first one we get 100% Inq up-time (on both Exo and HS) at the cost of 1 Exo every 6 seconds.
In the second one we get 60% up-time on Exo and 50% up-time on HS at the cost of 1 Exo every 12 seconds.
In the third one we get 62.5% up-time on Exo and 66% up-time on HS at the cost of 1 Exo every 18 seconds.
So according to the theorycraft 3 stacks > 2 stacks necessarily, and we can't determine what the value of 1 stack is until we determine how much Exo and HS are worth comparatively.
So I'm not sure why I peaked at 2.5k only using 2 stacks. May have been a latency + haste issue skewing things (Exo was was 1.4 unbuffed.). It may have also been RNG related. This is my first time writing all the theorycrafting out...all I did was hard test the rotations on the dummy.
Beitrag von
pezz
Edit: This is round two. Round one was a failure for oh so many reasons. Hence all the edits.
You worked out Inq wrong on one stack, I think. The buff should expire while the second Exo is actively being casted. I don't know if it still benefits from the buff or not, but I'll do both (50 or 100% exo uptime for one stack).
My reasoning:
Inquisition (Instant, buff remainder is at 2.5 by the time we can start casting) -> Exo (1 second remaining when cast finishes -> Exo (buff drops while cast is happening)
Exo does E damage, HS does H damage.
Scenario 1: 100% uptime. We have two exo's per six seconds, or .33 E per second. We have 1 HS per six seconds, or .167 H per second. Both exo's benefit from Inq, HS does not.
(1.3 x .33 x E) + .167 H =
.429 E + .167 H
Scenario 2: 50% uptime, otherwise everything still applies.
30% x .5 = 15% (duh)
(1.15 x .33 x E) =
.38 E + .167 H
One of the two bolded parts is the DPS of one stack Inqs.
Okay, three stacks.
.167 H per second, as always, with 66% inq uptime. 8 Exos every 18 seconds is .44 E per second, with 62.5% inq uptime.
30% x .66 = 20%, and 30% x .625 = 18.75
(1.1875 x .44 x E) + (1.2 x .167 x H) =
.5225 E + .2004 H
Three stacks wins, hands down.
Beitrag von
Hyperspacerebel
Scenario 2: 50% uptime, otherwise everything still applies.
30% x .5 = 15% (duh)
(1.15 x .33 x E) =
.38 E + .167 H
One of the two bolded parts is the DPS of one stack Inqs.
It's .416 E's per second.
5 Exos in 12 seconds.
(1.15 x .416 x E)
So, it would be
47.9 E
And you need to figure in the 50% up-time on HS too.
(1.15 x .167 x HS) = 0.192 HS
...Edit: damn, I made a bunch of mistakes just correcting that...I'm seriously out of it tonight. I think it's all good now.
I think part of it is that it's late, but you also think through math like this a lot different than I do.
Regardless, though, we're talking the difference of a couple hundred dps at most in a perfect environment, when the build itself is 5k behind dps builds. And throwing in healing will only make it all the lower. I don't see much in the way of hope for shockadinkind.
On that note, I'm going to bed.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
It seems that I've missed out on some fun theorycrafting... *sadface*
Beitrag von
pezz
How are you getting 5 exos in 12 seconds? The repeatable part of the rotation takes six seconds (four abilities x 1.5 sec GCD (which mostly ignores haste since HS is on a 6 sec CD regardless), and you cast two exos during that time. Unless Inq is off the GCD, HS is NEVER going to get the benefit of Inq if inq is cast immediately after HS. HS still has 4.5 sec on the cooldown once that 4 sec buff goes up, so I don't get the 50%, either.
Squish: Check my reasoning, if you're feeling left out. It's usually wrong four or five times before I get it right.
Do we know if HS does more damage than Exo? In principle, there's no particular reason on a one HP rotation why we have to do inq the moment we have a HP. We might be buffing the wrong part of the rotation. Consider HS -> Exo -> Inq -> Exo as the stable section of the rotation.
100% inq uptime on HS, and 50% on exo.
(1.15 x .33 x E) + (1.3 x .167 x H) = .38 E + .2171 H
Okay, I still doubt that's better than 3 stacks but for the sake of argument let's put it together.
.38 E + .2171 H = .5225 E + .2004 H
.0167 H = .1425 E
H = 8.53 E. I'm not sure if that means H has to do 8.53 times the DPS or damage of E, but either way I highly doubt that is EVER going to be true. I'm pretty sure that means three stack inqs are the way to go.
Antwort verfassen
Ihr seid nicht angemeldet. Bitte
meldet Euch an
, um eine Antwort einzusenden, oder
registriert Euch
falls Ihr noch nicht über ein Konto verfügt.