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Protribution DPS
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Beitrag von
dezziedc
Can someone maybe create the build in the wowhead talent calculator and link it? Just had a quick look at Fails Armory and he seems to have changed back to a standard Prot build and is wearing all prot gear.
I wouldn't mind giving this a go myself as my 2 specs are Ret and Prot - I have a reasonable mix of gear from 10/25 man Naxx and 10 Man uld for both builds. In addition, I am guessing I am looking to score a slow 1 handed sword with AP - something that might normally go to a rogue? Or are we looking at the standard 1 hand Prot weapon?
This is the spec that svirve is using in his modelling. There isn't much difference on the Prot side, except that you prefer points in Reckoning over Anticipation. The big difference is taking points out of Shield of the Templar, in order to invest more into Ret.
For PvP purposes, you might possibly want to swap out Divinity for points in Stoicism and Guardian's Favor, possibly two points out of Imp Devotion Aura and into Reckoning. You'd also probably take two (four) points out of Conviction to put into Vindication (and Pursuit of Justice).
Gearwise, you want a slow 1 handed sword with as much Strength as possible. In this build, AP isn't as useful (but still nice), since ShoR only scales with Strength. We can work out weightings once svirve finishes what he's doing.
Then for a weapon I would say although there are a few 1h weapons out there, the best choice would be
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40345
. Although not as high strength as some of the other items the rest of the stats are better. The loss in strength is negligible. Although the 2 swords available in Ulduar do have better dps. Anyway, we'll wait for svirve to finish the details!
Beitrag von
svirve
Yeah, I was wondering what you were still doing awake. Thanks for the numbers! =)
Going to change soon =) got a job interview tomorrow ;p
Some people will inevitably argue that not judging means that you lose the Libram of Obstruction benefit to ShoR. And other such things. Working out whether Avenging Shield is a good enough ability to use straight off CD at the expense of mucking up the rotation a bit, or whether leaving it in a 36sec rotation is better - that's a question I'm more thinking.
I was more thinking in the lines of subbing HS since it's unnecessary anyways.
It's probably more useful for Ret than for Prot. FCFS is a good rule of thumb, but it'd be interesting to see how good a tight rotation actually is by comparison.
I think that a FCFS priority would use a 969 base in this case and maybe prioritizing AS/Exo above some spells for subbing.
Svirve skrev: I'm using a european version (swedish to be exact)
HAH! I knew it. I had a creeping suspicion you where swedish.
Heh ;p it's not that hard to figure out =) I've posted alot of screenshots in alot of threads around here which sometimes includes swedish programs/startmenus etc..
Yep, that all looks pretty good to me. Edit: Only one question that I'm not sure of, does SoB proc off ShoR?
Dont see why it shouldn't proc of ShoR really. It's a melee ability like anything else. Will test it though.
I haven't the faintest idea, actually ;p
I can probably download OOo and work with the same version that you use. Excel doesn't tend to handle commas very well, so it's entirely likely that it'll break down and collapse if I try to import it, but at the same time, Excel 2007 has a lot of built-in support for cross-application filesharing (unless it's Excel formatted files ;p). See how we go - worst comes to worst, there are what, 50 formulas or so? One cell at a time...
Hopefully it'll all go just smoothly without too much hassle.
.
Thanks for the feedback Damoged! Looks promising that you were able to compete with ret DPS in pre-heroic gear!
I havn't been able to do any work on the spreadsheet today since i started off with searching for jobs and ended with a 2 hour drive and a night on the town :)
Will get to work on it tomorrow afternoon though hopefully after my job interview :)
Beitrag von
Squishalot
Going to change soon =) got a job interview tomorrow ;p
Congrats mate! Good luck with that... wait, why aren't you asleep yet? 3am forum posting results in an 18.33% decrease in interview performance... go on, you!
I was more thinking in the lines of subbing HS since it's unnecessary anyways.
Then by definition it'll operate on a 36sec rotation - every 4 HS's. Exo and AS will replace 3/4 HS, Sacred Shield would probably replace the other for mitigation's sake.
Dont see why it shouldn't proc of ShoR really. It's a melee ability like anything else. Will test it though.
A shield isn't a 'melee weapon'. Then again, SoB procs off fishing rod attacks (muahaha, 3.2k crit, let's go fishing in Thunder Bluff!), which also isn't classified as a weapon, so it's possible, I suppose. Easily tested, at least.
Will get to work on it tomorrow afternoon though hopefully after my job interview :)
Yep, but again, in the meantime, go to sleep! And good luck =)
Beitrag von
svirve
Congrats mate! Good luck with that... wait, why aren't you asleep yet? 3am forum posting results in an 18.33% decrease in interview performance... go on, you!
Eh.. I dont have to be there until 2 pm ;p And thanks!
A shield isn't a 'melee weapon'. Then again, SoB procs off fishing rod attacks (muahaha, 3.2k crit, let's go fishing in Thunder Bluff!), which also isn't classified as a weapon, so it's possible, I suppose. Easily tested, at least.
The seal never mentions melee weapons. Just melee
attacks
. And i dont think it gets more melee than bashing your shield in someones face ;p
Yep, but again, in the meantime, go to sleep! And good luck =)
Just have to add some replys when i'm tipsy ;p Thanks again!
Beitrag von
262937
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
259381
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
The seal never mentions melee weapons. Just melee attacks. And i dont think it gets more melee than bashing your shield in someones face ;p
Hehe, I know, I know. It's just that fishing rods don't count as melee weapons, so it casts an element of doubt over shields. But fishing rods proc SoB, so I suppose shields should also.
2800dps instead of 3000 dps when DPS'ing
vs
40% avoidance instead of 50% avoidance, due to 5% dodge/parry, and an extra 8% mitigation due to Toughness/Imp RF...
Suffice to say, but the 200dps difference probably isn't going to cause a raid wipe.
200 dps is a BIG difference between raid wiping and killing the boss.. Have you not raided? Most bosses in Ulduar have enrage timer and hard modes are even more dps dependent. These enrage times range from 3 minutes to 10 minutes, give or take. Losing 200dps is the same as losing from 36000 damage to 120000 damage, which is pretty big..
The dps role is to dps.. not provide 40% avoidance and other off-tanking options. If your tanks and healers are good, dps should not have to worry about bringing those useless things. And in 10 man instances, raid groups do not usually bring more than 2 paladins, let alone 2 dps paladins. They sometimes do, but not often. If a raid had to choose a protribution or a retribution, I'd think they would bring the retribution because rets provide much more benefits and buffs, while protribution provides almost no benefit (maybe Divine Sacrifice, but a ret can bring that too).
/sigh
Big props for not reading.
The post was in response to someone who wanted to use the SAME SPEC for both DPS and TANKING roles, but with different gear.
In a DPS role, he would be doing (assumed) 2800 vs 3000 dps.
In a TANKING role, he would only have 40% avoidance instead of 50% avoidance.
In terms of either role, you're more likely to wipe the raid by compromising as a tank, than as a DPS'er. That was the point of the post.
If you're worried about 120k damage over 10 minutes, on a boss with 10 million HP, and you're concerned that the boss will enrage on you at 1%, then I'd suggest that you don't have enough buffer, and that as a raid, you're undergeared full stop. What are you doing stepping foot into Ulduar in the first place, if you're only doing 3k dps?
If you've got a 10-man raid (where one DPS falling behind is more important), with a 2/5/3 tank/dps/healer layout (conservative, many run with 2/6/2 nowadays), and each DPS is expected to do 3k dps, and each tank is expected to do 1k dps (also conservative), then you're pulling 17k dps. Over six minutes, using Patch as an example, that's 6.1m damage, as opposed to actual health of 4.3m. Even if you did only 2.5k dps each and the tanks did NO DAMAGE, you could still do 4.5m and have buffer to let one of the dps slip to 2.3k. Again, if you have a buffer of <1% and that makes a BIG difference to you and your raid, then you've got a lot more to worry about.
If you've got a a non-paladin tank, then a Protribution paladin as DPS would still be of benefit in a 10 man raid, due to the bonuses from Improved Devotion Aura and Judgements of the Just, not to mention the extra buffs from Blessing of Wisdom/Might/Kings, as well as providing more spell-resist flexibility with their other auras. They'd be able to bubble healers to help remove aggro. They'd be able to add an extra Sacred Shield to the tank. They'd be lot more functional than a DK or Rogue or Warrior, IMO, if not quite as high DPS. But I've already addressed the meaningfulness of 100 dps.
Good thing this whole thread isn't about using a DPS protribution that could double as a tank.
It's about a DPS protribution doing solely dps.
Side questions defying the point = FTL.
Lol, ninja'd by one minute! It was a legitimate question by the other person though, if you've got an essentially prot spec, whether you can use it to double as DPS and tanking as and when you need, with different gear. In theory you could, but you have to look at what you're compromising in order to do so.
Edit: One more comment - I think that Protribution DPS will likely be more consistent/stable than Retribution DPS on the basis that the main damage abilities are fixed number based (4x main hand DPS, BV*130%), as opposed to RNG based (x% weapon damage, with min-max). Just a thought.
Beitrag von
259381
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
Thanks! ^^
Just waiting on svirve to make his final touches that keep him happy with the spreadsheet, then we'll be almost there...
It'd be a shame if it doesn't actually outperform Ret, after all this...
Beitrag von
259381
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
262937
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
306572
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
A retribution paladin provides much more buffs.. mana regen, 3% haste, healing through DS and judgment, improved might, improved ret aura plus anything the protribution has except the extra healing from improved devotion aura, which does not stack with druid's tree form.
I didn't say that they have more buffs than a Ret paladin. All I said was that there's additional benefits to having a Prot paladin above and beyond any other DPS'er. Did I compare it to a Ret Paladin? No. You said that you wouldn't have 2 paladin DPS in the raid. That's probably true, since 2 Ret pallies basically give you the same storm of buffs as 1 Ret pally, except you get extra Blessings and aura. But a Ret pally and a Prot pally, you get an extra boss debuff, you get silences, you get the extra healing in the event that you don't have a resto druid (not every party has one, you realise). You get extra stuns for the trash, if nothing else.
Besides which - there's nothing here to suggest that a Prot paladin will have a significantly lower DPS than a Ret paladin. As long as the DPS is up there, in a 25-man raid, noone really gives a stuff what melee class you are. If you're tossing up between a DK and a Prot pally, I see no reason why the Prot pally wouldn't be a reasonable choice, provided they produce the same or similar DPS.
I have nothing against the Protribution dps, but come on.. we have rets for dps
Btw I'd think (even if its small) 200dps would be wanted in a fight that is actually a dps race, for instance, Hard mode for Hodir, (not Patckwerk). Try dpsing about 8,000,000 in less than 180 seconds. I'd think the raid would try to squeeze in as much dps as possible.
The post was in response to someone who wanted to use the SAME SPEC for both DPS and TANKING roles, but with different gear.
Why did Blizzard give us dual spec? Do you want to have 3 roles (tank, heal, dps)?
You have to wait until you are out of combat to switch gear anyways, so why not change the spec too?
I agree. But if you have a guild which is asking you to fill all 3 roles (as the question was asked - he was prot/holy - and admittedly, I might be in the same compromising situation soon), then they need to understand that they have to compromise. I didn't say that this was an optimal thing to do, I merely said that if you're going to have to compromise, then you should compromise on the DPS side instead of the tanking side, since one is likely to have more of an impact. 200 DPS may impact a dps race, but 10% avoidance will impact on everything!
Again, to make it perfectly clear - I'm not saying that Protribution will mean the death of the Ret pally - certainly not! I'm just saying that you can easily DPS as a Prot pally, either with this spec, or with a cookie cutter tanking spec, without sacrifcing that much in damage dealing ability.
Yeah but on the flip-side it'll be amazing if it does outperform Ret.
I've always wanted to DPS on my paladin.. but not as Ret. That left me with two choices.
Shockadin or someway with Prot.
Shockadin is dead. So... last chance as DPS :P
Considering the other buffs that Ret can bring, as mentioned by people, it's unlikely that Ret will die completely. But it probably stands in its own right, similar to Rogues, as a DPS'ing build.
Beitrag von
svirve
Here's an original copy of my spreadsheet for those interested.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yz2mjk2zmyw
(I used the first best file host i could find).
I'm not sure of what needs to be done atm.
Short explanation:
Do not touch any tab marked in yellow. That's calculations.
Base is the base value of the stat (naked, untalented, unbuffed) value is what is added from gear & talents. Easiest way to fill this in is to either look at your armory profile or your paper doll in game (the "value" value is the text marked in green if you hover your mouse over a stat). Base AP is found by filling in your STR in the spreadsheet, fill in the amount of AP acquired through gear. And then just subtract the number you see on your paper doll/armory profile with the number shown on the spreadsheet.
Differences is calculated by "After - Before" so a -16 str on the differences means you have 16 more str in "before".
SPHit == Hit so dont touch the SPHit number (see: yellow tabs)
Expertise is capped at 26 skill, hit is capped at 8%, SPhit is capped at 17%
If there is any confusion ask first and fiddle later.
As it is now i'm not aware of any bugs so what might seem buggy to you could be done correctly just in an alternative way.
Beitrag von
299926
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
Here's an original copy of my spreadsheet for those interested.
http://www.mediafire.com/?yz2mjk2zmyw
(I used the first best file host i could find).
I'm not sure of what needs to be done atm.
Short explanation:
Do not touch any tab marked in yellow. That's calculations.
Base is the base value of the stat (naked, untalented, unbuffed) value is what is added from gear & talents. Easiest way to fill this in is to either look at your armory profile or your paper doll in game (the "value" value is the text marked in green if you hover your mouse over a stat). Base AP is found by filling in your STR in the spreadsheet, fill in the amount of AP acquired through gear. And then just subtract the number you see on your paper doll/armory profile with the number shown on the spreadsheet.
Differences is calculated by "After - Before" so a -16 str on the differences means you have 16 more str in "before".
SPHit == Hit so dont touch the SPHit number (see: yellow tabs)
Expertise is capped at 26 skill, hit is capped at 8%, SPhit is capped at 17%
If there is any confusion ask first and fiddle later.
As it is now i'm not aware of any bugs so what might seem buggy to you could be done correctly just in an alternative way.
Yay! ^^ I'll take a look at this when I get a chance and give you some feedback, or if it's all good, start fiddling on the next stages.
Why I was curious about being able to do this is sheer versatility. For example, Thad is a DPS race and you only really need 1 tank and 4 healers for that. I am not our raid's main tank, I am an offtank. My main spec is heals, but our other healers DPS is like 1k (if even). What do I do? Do I swap healers and have them do 1k DPS, or go as a tank, which is about 1.8k DPS, or throw on protribution gear/glyphs (still in tank spec) and do a DPS value just under a true protribution build? I am going to go with the tank spec/protribution gear/glyphs.
I appreciate you answering the question squish, because I believe that protribution has more of an application besides "UB3R L337 DPS". I understand the math, but its just too much for me to absorb. As soon as you guys get a stat preference on gear going I can start building a 4th set. *shudder....*
Fair point. That sounds like a perfect use from these findings. And don't worry, it may not be a 4th set...
Beitrag von
160947
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
Squishalot
Nerf is on the way - ShoR will be nerfed in 3.2, it seems...
Still, see how we go.
Beitrag von
259381
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Beitrag von
269367
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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