Vote-to-delete and reputation: should they be deleted?

发布者 rahael

would it be possible for you guys to add a short note on the voting page with a link to this thread? i'm still seeing a fair number of VtD nominations, so it might be good to reach out to those users who are still unaware that the system is going to be changed.

发布者 hatman555

Assuming my code-fu is strong

You know what happens when you assume.....

Everything works out fine!

Hat

发布者 SpiffyJr

Assuming my code-fu is strong

You know what happens when you assume.....

Everything works out fine!

Hat

I lol'd.

发布者 AnrDaemon

If everything works fine from a first try, you're surely missing something important...

发布者 asakawa

If everything works fine from a first try, you're surely missing something important...

I'm all for a bit of surly pragmatism but we can surely have a slightly more optimistic outlook than this, no?

发布者 CalaelenDT

发布者 Ashelia

Instead of wasting the time countless of users spend cleaning up the database by restoring all the comments, and than having them report all the same comments again so a moderator can go and re-delete them all, you just keep them deleted and have users report the comments that should be undeleted.

The amount of comments that got deleted that didn't deserve it is going to be such a small fraction of the total it's really not worth undoing so much community effort.

Whether or not the comments got deleted for the right reason (out of date) or the wrong one (useless comment, spam, whatever) doesn't matter, no one wants to see all the "got this rare mount of first try lol" again even if they were deleted through "abusing the system".

I also think it's funny that now that the system is getting deleted, I'm seeing admins talk about how "horrible" VtD was and how putting any comment that wasn't out of date up for deletion was "abusing the system" whereas that was never stated during the time the system was in place.

You're really overestimating how many deletes were good. Watching the VtD unfold was a lot like a nightmare--an interesting idea in concept, in actuality it just didn't work. A lot of deletes were for comments that weren't spammy and were barely (or not at all) out of date. Many were for users that targeted other uses. Additionally, without a safeguard of approval before delete, most people who click VtD just auto clear what they see, without even clicking the comment or examining or spending more than a second to delegate their deletes.

You're also giving too much credit to "countless hours" users wasted. Yes, there were a handful of you who did excellent nominations, and we'll be doing our best to ensure those comments deleted remain so. But there were also hundreds who abused it to target other users. And what about the countless hours of users who left good comments only to have them deleted one day without reason?

As an example of what we're doing, we might make it so that a comment has to be +2 or higher to be undeleted, which will fix all of those comments you're concerned about (e.g. "I got this mount today!"). We may also try to make sure comments that were put in queue for deletion by people with clean up achievements stay deleted.

As for the system, I personally didn't agree with VtD. It's why I led some initiatives like how to fix the comment revamp and listen to the community which were received pretty well. And after seeing VtD play out and being able to show why it isn't working, I'm able to do something about it and listen to the community who has made it pretty clear they want VtD removed or restyled. It's as simple as that =)(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##Ashelia##DELIM##

发布者 Ashelia

Here's the final figures for what we're undeleting when we remove VtD:

(7:54:47 AM) Ashelia: we can se tthe following parameters:
(7:54:52 AM) Ashelia: a) it wasn't deleted by a mod or an admin
(7:54:58 AM) Ashelia: b) it wasn't delete by the OP of the comment
(7:55:04 AM) Ashelia: and c) it wasn't deleted by one of those 49 people who have the clean-up gold achievement
(7:55:25 AM) Ashelia: oh and it also has to be above +1

We will be renaming the achievement as well, so those who already have the clean-up ones still keep their work done.

发布者 hymer

Hey, just because I rushed to get the fifty rep points for the gold achievement doesn't mean I didn't screw up, especially early on. Once I got wind of the debate here, I tried to stick to actually outdated material, but I think I started deletion on quite a few comments that were merely wrong or misleading - not out of date as such. I thought I was supposed to.

发布者 Nooska

Just a quick question - how many comments were deleted by one of the 19 people with the gold achievement?
Pure curiosity I'll admit.

发布者 hatman555

Just a quick question - how many comments were deleted by one of the 19 people with the gold achievement?
Pure curiosity I'll admit.

You mean the 49 people?

To be honest, I blitzed out the achievement about 2 hours by going through each of the paladin abilities and killing the out of date ones. So might count is around 200-210.

I'm sure CalaelenDT is crushing it around 500-1000

Hat

发布者 SpiffyJr

Just a quick question - how many comments were deleted by one of the 19 people with the gold achievement?
Pure curiosity I'll admit.

I did the query earlier and I believe it was hovering around 14k.

EDIT: Ran it again, it's 22,210. I like to be precise. ;)(##RESPBREAK##)2##DELIM##SpiffyJr##DELIM##

发布者 Nulgar

You know what happens when you assume.....

Everything works out fine!"There's absolutely nothing that could go wrong."

发布者 CalaelenDT

发布者 Ashelia

I appreciate the reply Ashelia, apologies for assuming to know what percent of the VtD comments were actually useful. I just went by the comments I saw on my deletion queue and most of those were no loss to the database if they got deleted. I probably only saw a fraction of the comments that got put up for deletion though, far too few to base an assumption like mine earlier one on.

The "countless of hours" statement was made with the incorrect assumption from above that most of the comments put up for deletion deserved it. And more of a over the top way of stating that various people did spend time using the system to clean up the database as intended.

Lastly, and maybe most importantly, my earlier post had nothing to do with my personal investments in the VtD system. It hadn't even crossed my mind that it might've sounded like I was defending my own work till Ashelia brought up the "49 gold achievement users" part. I don't consider the time I spend cleaning up the database through VtD anymore important than that of any other user, regardless of achievement or not.

While I enjoy achievements, I don't do anything on Wowhead just for the sake of them, I do it because I enjoy doing it, and I don't consider anything I do above that of anyone else.

It's NP, I just wanted you to realize how badly this system worked out--that people were really abusing it and it'd gone far beyond cleaning up the DB. If people didn't find a comment funny that was a joke that had say 95 upvotes, they'd VtD that. A lot of times it'd pass. That kind of stuff is why I made it Spiffy's first project once we hired him; it lets him get used to the DB but also stops users from flatout abusing people.

That said, I think the 49 gold achievement people probably had safe nominations (I know and recognize all of their names and know them to be healthy contributors), so your complaint sparked the idea to add those 49 users to the query.

发布者 CalaelenDT

Thanks a lot for taking the time to read my posts and responding to them so quickly.

发布者 rahael

in the event that we do come across legacy VtD comments that are not actually out-of-date, what will the process be for dealing with them? will we need to create a mod report to have the deletion reverted?

发布者 SpiffyJr

For those curious, here's a small sample of how the comments will look.

Clicky

It's still in development so nothing is final but I like to give progress reports. Enjoy!

发布者 Balgair

That said, I think the 49 gold achievement people probably had safe nominations (I know and recognize all of their names and know them to be healthy contributors), so your complaint sparked the idea to add those 49 users to the query.

Personally as one of the 49, I see a few names in there who annoyed me as deleting non-out-of-date content, some of it fully relevant at the time, so I'm not sure that just being on the list means all those users' deletions were safe. For example, one of the first to get the achievement wiped out a ton of valid and useful posts on a current ingame holiday, a lot of which were not outdated at all - in fact it was seeing that user's butchery which encouraged me to get my rep up so I'd have the ability to undelete! I believe my own deletions were indeed out of date, but I'd far rather see all mine wiped out than all those of some other people (I won't name and shame, don't want to start arguments) remain without question. I'm sure the majority did use it correctly, but some were just deleting anything in order to to get the achievement, from what I saw.

Also I'm somewhat surprised you'd know my name or consider me a healthy contributor, given my rather small number of posts, most of which are solely me complaining about VtD! :)

Vote-to-delete and reputation: should they be deleted?

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