Alliance vs. Horde (Legitmate discussion please)

Сообщение от Adamsm

You realize that trolling isn't allowed on Wowhead right? And can get you a suspension or a ban from this site. Kindly stop antagonizing the users here before the Mods decide they've had enough.

Сообщение от Berronaxwins

I'm not trolling. you're just angry at me because i outed you both for being biased towards the horde.. you need to lighten up.

Сообщение от Rankkor

You're right, its not worth the time.

Anyhows, if you did wanted to take out a well defended city, you'd have to mobilize an army, set up a blockade, stop supply routes, and cut off ways of escape. Silvermoon is pretty damned covered in that regard, because to go to them you gotta go through the forsaken first, and also across the scourge-infested plaguelands. That's from the south. From the north there's the sunwell which provides so much raw energy and power you'd have to be pretty damned crazy to try an attack from there (or have double-agents on the inside)

Trying to attack the city via magic is non-feasable, and trying to take them out with a conventional army is a lot harder due to being surrounded by mountains in all sides, scourge and forsaken to the south, and the sunwell to the north.

Orgrimmar however is a lot more vulnerable. There's a huge chunk of sea to the east where any invading force can land. As northwatch already demonstrated.

Stormwind is also pretty vulnerable due to being so close to the sea.

But Ironforge, Silvermoon, Exodar, and Thunderbluff are borderline impossible to assault conventionally unless you have help from the inside.

Specially ironforge. From a tactical point of view, you have no idea just how many advantages that deeprun tram offers.

Of course, if stormwind ever falls, that very same tram can also offer a very exploitable weak spot.

Сообщение от Adamsm

There's that biased labeling again; I'd suggest you look at my character list; I have far more alliance toon then horde ones.

Сообщение от Atik

There's that biased labeling again; I'd suggest you look at my character list; I have far more alliance toon then horde ones.

In all fairness Adams, I think only Skree and Light might actually have more horde characters than alliance, regardless of which we prefer. :P (I know I'm a bigger Horde fan, but have a ton more alliance characters in my roster.)

That said, I think we already covered the tram and such when debating how "invincible" Ironforge is. ~~(WHY DO THEY CALL IT INCINVIBLE IF YOU CAN SEE IT?)~~

Сообщение от Adamsm

There's that biased labeling again; I'd suggest you look at my character list; I have far more alliance toon then horde ones.

In all fairness Adams, I think only Skree and Light might actually have more horde characters than alliance, regardless of which we prefer. :P (I know I'm a bigger Horde fan, but have a ton more alliance characters in my roster.)Yeah but I have one Horde toon at 85; everything else is level 40 and below while I have multiple Alliance toons over 60.

Сообщение от Rankkor

/shrug, I got 2 alliance toons at lvl 90, and 2 horde ones at 90. I don't really see what that has to do with anything.

While I am heavily pro-horde that doesn't mean I'm gonna go delusive and try to defend the wrongdoings they commit. Or to try and paint them stronger than they really are. Horde has weaknesses, So does alliance.

Jaina being in the alliance doesn't really givse them any major advantage on the horde. For that matter the horde has an equal (or even higher) number of mages and archmages on their rosters.

Plus I get the lingering hint that jaina isn't going to be alliance for long. What she did IS going to bite her in the ass eventually. The council of Six can't be too happy about being sidelined like she did. And even Varian heavily disapproved on her actions.

Сообщение от Adamsm

My point was more if you were gonna throw the bias label at me, you'd go with the Alliance one.

I have no Faction bias; I have racial bias sure, since it's well known I hate the Forsaken lol. But I'm a fan of both sides of the faction coin, and both sides do things that make me sick.

Сообщение от Rankkor

But I'm a fan of both sides of the faction coin, and both sides do things that make me sick.

truer words rarely get spoken.

Сообщение от Lordplatypus

Stormwind is alot harder to drown than Silvermoon that's for sure.

Stormwind's actually on some sort of cliff face, meaning you have to get the water above the docks height to do much.

Oh and Draenei Mage>Blood Elf Mage. (We have to remember, even if they are all about the light at the momment they still are the best magic race)

Сообщение от Atik

Oh and Draenei Mage>Blood Elf Mage. (We have to remember, even if they are all about the light at the momment they still are the best magic race)

That's never been outright stated.

Draenei were masters of arcane and technology according to their lore (at least one version of it.) But, that doesn't mean they're magical knowledged surpassed High/Blood Elves, or even equaled it.

The problem with the Draenei is that Blizzard still won't show us what their stuff really does. The Eredar seemingly abandoned their technology, and what of it we see just sorta sits around looking pretty.

Сообщение от Skreeran

Stormwind is alot harder to drown than Silvermoon that's for sure.

Stormwind's actually on some sort of cliff face, meaning you have to get the water above the docks height to do much.

Oh and Draenei Mage>Blood Elf Mage. (We have to remember, even if they are all about the light at the momment they still are the best magic race)And the Draenei wouldn't be pro-WMD, either.

Сообщение от Lordplatypus

We're not talking about WMDs here.

We're talking about using magic to stop a catastrophic event

Сообщение от Monday

Basically they're saying:

Where is your proof that the draenei are the best magic race?

Сообщение от Skreeran

And I'm saying that the Draenei couldn't be used as a counterpoint to the Blood Elves if the Focusing Iris were used on Silvermoon.

Сообщение от Rankkor

Stormwind is alot harder to drown than Silvermoon that's for sure.

Stormwind's actually on some sort of cliff face, meaning you have to get the water above the docks height to do much.

Not really, Silvermoon is also on a pretty steep cliff, and has bottomless pits EVERYWHERE. Plus its within spitting distance of the Sunwell, the currently strongest source of energy in the world. The one place in azeroth where even a handful of mages are more powerful than anything you could imagine.

As long as the well sustains them, the blood elves wont go down. The only reason the scourge managed to get them in the third war was because they were betrayed from within (Darkhan) and on the second war, while they were hit, it was just the outer forest, the actual city was untouched. Also remember that this well which was already pretty damned powerful as it used to be, is now empowered by the essence of a Naaru who willingly fused itself to it to restore it. So its a source of light magic, AND arcane. All in one package.

So now we're not just talking about magi here that are empowered by it, priests and paladins near the well would be pretty damned hard to put down.

I'll admit that stormwind IS harder to drown than orgrimmar (for one thing as you said its on a cliffside, but it also has a pretty advanced drainage and sewer system. Plus Orgrimmar is sitting on a canyon =/ really poor choice of locale if you ask me)

Oh and Draenei Mage>Blood Elf Mage.We're gonna need some citations for that. Masters of Light magic? sure. But arcane? they got mages alright, but thats about it.

Do remember where the blood elves learned magic: The Well of Eternity. THE strongest energy source in the universe. A source of energy so great, it made every demon in the universe get wet just by thinking about it. Every descendant of the original Highborne who emigrated to the east has a bit of the well in them (its part of the reason they have an uncurable addiction to magic) and this alone makes them far more powerful in magic than you'd think.

(We have to remember, even if they are all about the light at the momment they still are the best magic race)

Light? sure, undeniably, and unquestioningly, they are the masters of the light, and their Vindicators/Anchorites can put every paladin and priest in the other races to shame. But arcane magic? not so much.

Сообщение от Lordplatypus

Well, We have to remember who the Draenei were before they were the Exiled ones.
They were a mage-based society called the eredar, the same eredar as Kil'Jaedan. They probably have a few thousand years over troll society in terms of age.

Oh and the big problem with the Sunwell? I'm pretty sure none blood elven forces can also draw from it, at the very least we know that high elves can, and it's probably not that far a stretch to say night elves can. The other races probably should be able to.

Hence, really, the sunwell is more a curse than a blessing when faced with the alliance.

The alliance in general has more priests mages and paladins than the horde (Who have more shamans and warlocks).

Although really, the biggest problem is how silvermoon's walls are pretty much the least durable, with half of the city already in ruins and an easy way in.

But nothing sucks as much against a siege as the darkspear and their echo isles.

Сообщение от Rankkor

Well, We have to remember who the Draenei were before they were the Exiled ones.
They were a mage-based society called the eredar, the same eredar as Kil'Jaedan. They probably have a few thousand years over troll society in terms of age.

Yes in their glory days in argus, they really were the most advanced race in the universe (They caught teh eye of sargeras for that very same reason) but culturally, their focus shifted heavily from exploration of the arcane, to exploration of the light. To the point that really, even though they have hunters, and shamans, and warriors, the whole race is devoted to the light.

Oh and the big problem with the Sunwell? I'm pretty sure none blood elven forces can also draw from it

To draw from it, you have to be in it. Its not like you can tap into its power from miles away, if you could, blood elves would be undefeatable everywhere. Nope, you can only tap into the well's power by directly channeling from within its boundaries.

The high elves used to have full freedom to enter the well, but thanks to the actions of Vereesa, good luck trying to get within a mile of the sunwell.

at the very least we know that high elves can, and it's probably not that far a stretch to say night elves can. The other races probably should be able to.

Any race can do it, just like any race could tap into the well of eternity, Rhonin was able to enhance his magic when he was near the well but just as Rhonin had to be near the well to use its power, the races of the alliance would also have to be IN the well to do the same. And the Silvermoon Magisters wont just let that happen.

Hence, really, the sunwell is more a curse than a blessing when faced with the alliance.

The alliance in general has more priests mages and paladins than the horde

I'm not sure I follow. The sunwell is an energy source that can empower arcane users, and light users, but you'd need to physically access the sunwell to juice up and be all powerful, like I said, if anyone could do it from anywhere, then the blood elves would be unbeatable.

Although really, the biggest problem is how silvermoon's walls are pretty much the least durable, with half of the city already in ruins and an easy way in.

You sure? I just checked. The ruined side is completely isolated from the restored side, and the silvermoon walls are pretty damned durable. Want proof? Lordaeron got assaulted by the scourge. Upper city looks like crap, and never truly recovered, its walls crumbled to dust and barely hold together at all.

Dalaran got assaulted by the scourge, and got banged up so badly they needed years to put it back together, even then, the city is smaller than before.

Silvermoon got banged by the scourge, and not only the walls stood, they still are pretty damned strong. Have you seen the height of the Court of the Sun? it rivals Kharazan in terms of tallest building in the Eastern Kingdoms (used to be tallest building of Azeroth, but I think ICC is way taller) And it still looks pristine.

But nothing sucks as much against a siege as the darkspear and their echo isles.

No kidding :S

They used to be able to count with the assistance of orgrimmar in case of attack, but lately? Yeah......

Сообщение от 1090005

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Lordplatypus

You sure? I just checked. The ruined side is completely isolated from the restored side, and the silvermoon walls are pretty damned durable. Want proof? Lordaeron got assaulted by the scourge. Upper city looks like crap, and never truly recovered, its walls crumbled to dust and barely hold together at all.

Dalaran got assaulted by the scourge, and got banged up so badly they needed years to put it back together, even then, the city is smaller than before.

Silvermoon got banged by the scourge, and not only the walls stood, they still are pretty damned strong. Have you seen the height of the Court of the Sun? it rivals Kharazan in terms of tallest building in the Eastern Kingdoms (used to be tallest building of Azeroth, but I think ICC is way taller) And it still looks pristine.

Silvermoon got hit by a small attack force with the objective of taking the sunwell then leaving.
Lordaeron got the entire army and lasted far longer than 3 battles.

Elven Architecture won't even hold up on it's on, they rely on magic.

Compare that to say, Dwarven or Human style Buildings which can stand up to ALOT of punishment before going down.

Do not compare Silvermoon with Lordaeron.

Oh and
For millennia the mystical pool of energy fueled the potent magic of the exiled high elves. The Sunwell's inexhaustible power permeated the elves and infused them with a constant supply of arcane energy. For generations the high elves protected and cherished the well, benefiting from its powers even when outside the borders of their homeland.
It's more low-key than you make it out to be, and of course, it's range is far longer too.

Alliance vs. Horde (Legitmate discussion please)

Ответить