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New Warchief?
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470415
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Adamsm
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Bah, Saurfang doesn't need rest, Azeroth just needs rest from him!
Well he is somewhere between 60-80.....
Joke.
Head.
More then likely.
Rankkor
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Bah, Saurfang doesn't need rest, Azeroth just needs rest from him!
Well he is somewhere between 60-80.....
Joke.
Head.
as I said, Cairne was 90 (in a race that has an average life-span of 100) and he was a great leader. Terenas was 70, (in a race that has an average life-span of 80) and he was a great (if slightly over-protective) king. And this is not counting people like Antonidas, Greymane, and Admiral Proudmoore.
Age is no impediment for leadership if the person in question is good at leading.
Saurfang at several points has shown just how good a leader he is.
Adamsm
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He is a good leader...but he's also a bit of a broken man at this point; that's why Thrall let him 'retire' to the pacified Northrend. He had the most important thing in the world to him die and he needs to come to terms and grips with that; it's entirely possible he could never recover from that(all Saurfang jokes aside), and it's also possible that it weakened him(seen in real life with parents when children die).
It also sounds like Saurfang is tired of all the conflicts he's been embroiled with over the course of his lifetime and just wants to be left in peace.
470415
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306612
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870547
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Adamsm
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To be honest though I'm thinking Garrosh remains Warchief, Thrall returning to the Horde to pimp slap him if he strays from the righteous path. You know, the kind of discipline he should have instilled in him in the first place.
Garrosh is a good battle leader. You want him to spear-head offensives. The last thing you want him to do is plan things or hang back. He's too much like his father to do so.
Well, then Garrosh can take over Saurfang's position when Thrall comes back, and remain as the leader of the might of the Horde, while Thrall handles all the other problems that rise up.
Rankkor
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Yeah, the horde has had enough of his daddy issues.
Hopefully blizzard will come to their senses and just retcon his ass out of existence
.
Still waiting on that character development blizz talked about back in wrath
.
@the bolded part: After all the time they spent rubbing him on our faces? unlikely.
There are VERY FEW existing characters that have seemingly been retconed out of existence, and most of them go way back to warcraft 1 and 2.
@the underlined part: He DID had a small character development. WOTLK-garrosh would had given Overlord Krom'gar a medal for his actions on stonetalon. CATA-garrosh trew him off a cliff. WOTLK-garrosh would aprove and encourage the use of blight and valkirs against the alliance. CATA-garrosh believes any b1tch using that crap should watch her clever mouth.
The main problem with garrosh's "Development" is that the end result is still too similar to the point of origin. He developed a somewhat visible code of honor in regards to war (reason why he will not tolerate attacks on civilians, or aprove the use of chemical weapons) but his thirst for battle and ineptitude to lead are just as glaring as in WOTLK (Twilight highlands rings a bell?)
306612
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Rankkor
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The main problem with garrosh's "Development" is that the end result is still too similar to the point of origin. He developed a somewhat visible code of honor in regards to war (reason why he will not tolerate attacks on civilians, or aprove the use of chemical weapons) but his thirst for battle and ineptitude to lead are just as glaring as in WOTLK (Twilight highlands rings a bell?)
And then they pretty much %^&* all over that development in an expanded-universe book designed to make Alliance players feel good.
its the main reason why I haven't (And will not) read Wolfheart.
Its a book that adds nothing meaningfull to the overall story, and its only meant to make the alliance fans (and ONLY the alliance fans) feel good in their tummies.
its not a book with important lore information like Lord of the Clans, Day of the Dragon, or The Shattering, or Twilight of the Aspects, or War of the Ancients, or even Night of the Dragon.
its a book with completely negligible information like Stormrage (which you can completely skip altogether and not miss anything important other than how malfurion came back, you could easily read a resume of the book and be done with it) in which Mister Dragonlance (knaak) vents his hatred of the horde in the most glaring way posible.
Quick impersonation of Wolfheart:
Malfurion: Horde kicks our ass, we need backup. BRING THE WORGENS AND HIGHBORNE IN.
Maiev: 10k years is too little time to put a grudge behind, DIE HIGHBORNE.
Varian: HEY LOOK, I'M A BIPOLAR TSUN-DERE. *tsun-tsun side: I love my son, I want what's best for him, and for my people. dere-dere side:
I WANT TO BATHE IN ORC BLOOD! >=D
*
*maiev gets her ass kicked, proceeded by every orc in ashenvale being depicted as a spawn of satan shortly before being massacred.*
thanks, but no thanks, I'll pass.
If i'm gonna read a book, it will either be neutral (showing the negative sides of both factions, or no faction-pride at all) or be actually relevant to the plot (with important events that have a real tangible repercussion ingame)
as it stands, Wolfheart is just Knaak venting his bias again, while adding nothing important to the plot. Me thinks he just wants to adopt Varian as his new alter-ego since krasus is dead.
I'll just wait for golden's book on jaina, bet you 50 bucks its gonna be 10 times better.
885616
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Rankkor
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In my opinion, Blizzard has done a poor job representing Garrosh as a leader aswell as a character. They've ruined a great leader and the only time I could ever see Garrosh doing something that would show how he was represented in the shattering as well as in Wrath would be when he killed Krom'gar. Otherwise Blizzard has ruined a character and given him a bad reputation. In all truth Garrosh is a great leader and arguably the strongest warrior on all of Azeroth, albeit Hot-Headed but still a leader with alot of potential.
The way I see it, Thrall should not return to the Horde and instead continue to serve for a great purpose. Blizzard needs to make Garrosh a bit better, considering they just made him look like a raging moron who attacks things with his axe, he'd be alot less hated if he actually did what Blizzard promised he would do because as I remember, they promised he would unite the Horde. He is a hero to the Horde and you would think with that heroism he might be a bit smarter and a better leader.
All I can say is that Thrall makes me mad, he allowed the Horde to sit around and get their land taken. Garrosh finally had enough of it and decided to take what he could not receive through diplomacy. In Garrosh's time as warchief he has gained more land, increased productivity, and show the world what the Horde war machine truly is. As an Alliance player I approve of Garrosh and I have since they told us he would be leading the Horde and though he has made some bad decisions, if Blizzard would just make him as they described him in the Shattering and gave us what they promised he would be a much...Much better leader.
wow dude.......... so much disagreement...... gonna have to dissect this one too.
In my opinion, Blizzard has done a poor job representing Garrosh as a leader aswell as a character. They've ruined a great leader
dude, its not like he was a good character to begin with. At no point since he was introduced I've seen anything remotely resembling proper leadership. From the mopey angsty kid on Nagrand, to the rage-a-holic imbecile on Borean Tundra/violet citadel, to the plain jerkass in ToC/ToTC, to the Rage-a-holic imbecile AND jerkass in cataclysm, I've yet to see what they've described in him. Not even his role on the book of the shattering, or his short story shows ANYTHING blizz has advertised for him.
the only time I could ever see Garrosh doing something that would show how he was represented in the shattering as well as in Wrath would be when he killed Krom'gar
about the only part of your post I agree to. If blizz had decided to portray garrosh as a "dont screw with me" honorable badass warrior, I woudn't be so upset with him. The stonetalon episode clearly marked him as a character, because it portrayed him as something OTHER than a mindless raging moron, and displayed that he could be cool-headed and open to reason at times. If they had shown more moments like this, in which he could be open to reason without displaying weakness and acting like a badass, he could had been rescued from the scrappy heap, but as it stands rite now, a single incident isn't enough to rescue a character.
Its the same with Varian. Its hard to NOT think of him as a racist prick when every time he opens his mouth is to say how orcs are animals instead of people, how they should be purged from the world, how they are nothing more than murderers and traitors, and how their honor aint worth sh1t. If they had given him more moments like the one in Icecrown, where he is open to reason, how he can see beyond racial boundries, and for once just put himself on someone else's shoes, he could had truly evolve as a character. But no, he's stuck in permament rage mode. At least he's not as bad as garrosh because as a bipolar tsun-dere his rage has an on/off switch.
Otherwise Blizzard has ruined a character and given him a bad reputation.
again, dude he had a bad reputation to begin with, a character that starts bad, can't be ruined, they are either improved, or remain bad characters. Garrosh from day 1 has been nothing more than a terrible character, and his reputation was NEVER good to begin with.
In all truth Garrosh
is a great leader
and arguably
the strongest warrior on all of Azeroth
, albeit Hot-Headed but still a leader with alot of potential.
whoa whoa whoa........ "great leader"? ta'hell? his display of tactics is equal to a steak. My niece would be a better general than him and she's 7. His display of knoledge and tactics in Borean Tundra cemented just how little of strategy he knows of, and when put to practice, his "strategy" on twilight highlands confirmed what an incompetent idiot he is.
And as for "the greatest warrior in all of azeroth" my ass bro', Cairne, a 90 year old elder KICKED HIS ASS. If garrosh's weapon wasn't poisoned he would had died there, and everybody knows it. Garrosh was already in bad shape during the middle of the duel while cairne was perfectly intact. During the entire fight, the only wound garrosh managed to inflict on him was a slight scratch on his chest.
This was against an old man WAY past his prime, and who had at best a couple of decades left of life. Now imagine against a younger oponent like Varian. As much as I
HATE
varian, I flat-out admit that if he and garrosh ever got into a fight, Varian would kick garrosh's ass without much effort. Then there's Saurfang, who is TRULY the greatest warrior in all of azeroth, so great in fact, that even ALLIANCE SOLDIERS praise his strength.
Garrosh is a glorified trouble-maker, but I can name of the top of my head half a dozen warriors in azeroth who can kick his ass effortlessly (Varian, Saurfang, Cairne, Greymane, Crowley, Muradin) this number jumps to 2 dozens if we include characters who are more than just warriors and can use magic like Thrall or Malfurion.
The way I see it, Thrall should not return to the Horde and instead continue to serve for a great purpose.
Personal opinion. Me I judge on merits, and Thrall has done more in his time as leader than any other leader ever has. Garrosh has done little more than undo what his predecessor worked for YEARS to preserve.
Blizzard needs to make Garrosh a bit better, considering they just made him look like a raging moron who attacks things with his axe, he'd be alot less hated if he actually did what Blizzard promised he would do because as I remember, they promised he would unite the Horde. He is a hero to the Horde and you would think with that heroism he might be a bit smarter and a better leader.
They've been grooming him for 3 expansions and his character still sucks, me, I just think they should get rid of that failed project and just work with what was tried and true.
All I can say is that Thrall makes me mad, he allowed the Horde to sit around and get their land taken.
O_o what? dude, The alliance did not began invading orc lands till AFTER garrosh was apointed leader. While Thrall was leading, no orcish lands were invaded. They broke the peace treaty first by taking honor hold, and invading durotan, but these events happened when garrosh was at the helm.
if anything (and yes, for a horde fan I'm playing a bit of Devil's advocate here) it was the alliance who sat around for quite a while while the forsakens poked at them at every turn, and only now they began pushing right back.
Garrosh finally had enough of it and decided to take what he could not receive through diplomacy. In Garrosh's time as warchief he has gained more land, increased productivity, and show the world what the Horde war machine truly is.
exept that he never tried the diplomatic route first. All he thinks of is war, without consideration to what that will do in the long run. Diplomacy always works better than violence, and Anduin proved that to Garrosh during the last diplomatic meeting that both factions had.
588688
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4dehorde
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Technically Rankkorr the Alliance did in fact break the treaty first. Daelin Proudmoore, Grand Admiral of the Alliance Navy, invaded Durotar and the Barrens years before WoW vanilla and tried to genocide the Horde. Even after his defeat the Alliance did not reign in the troops he left behind. Tiragarde Keep and Northwatch Hold were filled with Alliance troops in Horde lands, hell, Tiragarde is in DUROTAR, Orc central. Also, Alliance forces were moving against the Forsaken in Hillsbrad and Silverpine over in Lordaeron with skirmishes for years since vanilla. At the same time the Horde was moving against night elf Ashenvale and the night elves were moving against orcish Ashenvale. Overall both sides kinda ignored the treaty, but in my view based on what I've gathered from the lore, the Alliance broke it first.
Back on topic, my main reasons for opting for Varok Saurfang are because of his experience and wisdom. The Horde facing trying times, and great experience makes great leaders. He also has wisdom, a great feat for a leader. Thrall has those as well, but in his absence I believe Saurfang would indeed be a better Warchief than Garrosh. I respect Garrosh as a warrior, but not a leader.
Adamsm
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Technically Rankkorr the Alliance did in fact break the treaty first. Daelin Proudmoore, Grand Admiral of the Alliance Navy, invaded Durotar and the Barrens years before WoW vanilla and tried to genocide the Horde. Even after his defeat the Alliance did not reign in the troops he left behind. Tiraguarde Keep and Northwatch Hold were filled with Alliance troops in Horde lands, hell, Tiraguarde is in DUROTAR, Orc central. Also, Alliance forces were moving against the Forsaken in Hillsbrad and Silverpine over in Lordaeron with skirmishes for years since vanilla. At the same time the Horde was moving against night elf Ashenvale and the night elves were moving against orcish Ashenvale. Overall both sides kinda ignored the treaty, but in my view based on what I've gathered from the lore, the Alliance broke it first.Incorrect as the Tiragarde forces are not part of Theramore? Also, when Daelin invaded Durotar, he imprisoned his daughter(you know, the rightful leader of Theramore?) and conscripted her people to join his forces. Those who were left behind afterward were rebels and renegades, as shown by that large number of them in Dustwallow as well. Post Shattering, yes it's Northwatch soldiers who are under the Alliance, but as it's back to war at that point(since the breaking of the treaty happened before the Shattering occurred), Garrosh attack on the ships at sea were the original opener to the return to war, and then add in the Ashenvale assault right after the Shattering well....
Back on topic, my main reasons for opting for Varok Saurfang are because of his experience and wisdom. The Horde facing trying times, and great experience makes great leaders. He also has wisdom, a great feat for a leader. Thrall has those as well, but in his absence I believe Saurfang would indeed be a better Warchief than Garrosh. I respect Garrosh as a warrior, but not a leader.And all through the thread it has been said why Saurfang can't really lead anymore.
306612
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Adamsm
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And all through the thread it has been said why Saurfang can't really lead anymore.
Dude would likely die of a heart attack the moment the Horde suffered a massive loss. The dude has been fighting all his life. He earned his retirement in peace.
Agree on the heart attack, but probably because he would be out there on the front lines trying to lead the Horde forces, rather then remaining at the back....though, I guess Garrosh does lead personally when he goes into combat(The Shattering, Wolfheart and Sylvanas leader story, as well as his own).
306612
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Adamsm
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Agree on the heart attack, but probably because he would be out there on the front lines trying to lead the Horde forces, rather then remaining at the back....though, I guess Garrosh does lead personally when he goes into combat(The Shattering, Wolfheart and Sylvanas leader story, as well as his own).
The moment Garrosh hangs back is the moment he loses all the Orcs' respect. The whole idea behind the Orcs respecting him is because he doesn't hang back.
True true.
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