Why Your Religion?

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Monday

Also, do you feel strongly in love or hatred of Religion? If not, then you shouldn't question how I feel about it.

Yes I do feel strongly in my love, yet you question me.

Don't be hypocritical.

Post by Skreeran

Also, do you feel strongly in love or hatred of Religion? If not, then you shouldn't question how I feel about it.

Yes I do feel strongly in my love, yet you question me.

Don't be hypocritical.I'm not trying to be hypocritical. I also feel strongly about religion. I was mainly pointing out the fact that Squish said not to question someone else if you don't feel strongly about it, and yet he's questioning me.

In ICC atm.

Post by Squishalot

Skree, Leviticus represents the rules that the Jews should live by. It says nothing about how to treat members not of your religion. What it says is that if a Jewish man lays with another man as he lies with a woman, he should be stoned. And that's their life, nothing to do with yours.

Just to be clear, here's the Wiki article on Leviticus:

The second part, Leviticus 17–26, is known as the Holiness Code, and places particular, and noticeable, emphasis on holiness, and the holy; it contains commandments intended not just for the priests but for the whole congregation.

Edit: Just to be further clear, here is Leviticus 20:1-2, which is the introduction to your previous quote:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.

This is followed by the 'if a man does ...' statements. This clearly states that these are laws intended for the Israelites only (i.e. the Jews of the time), or 'aliens' living in Israel (i.e. tourists of the day, not that Moses had many tourists). The point is, if you live in their world, you live by their rules and laws, just like any other country. Same reason you can't sunbathe topless in Dubai. People from the Middle East won't arrest you if you bathe like that in California, but while you're in their land, you live by their rules.

Context. Unfortunately, many theists who use the Torah as a fundamental basis for their religion also fail at context.

Also, do you feel strongly in love or hatred of Religion? If not, then you shouldn't question how I feel about it.

I feel strongly that you shouldn't hate religion, hence I can question how you feel about it.

Personally, I think you use 'hate' too freely. I would either save it for things or people that are truly abombinable, or if you really do think everything you've said is hateworthy, then beware of turning to the dark side :P

It would seem to benefit those people, but it is not reasonable. It's biased in the complete opposite direction. What fundamentalist on a jury wouldn't be biased against a godless heathen they think will be sent to hell when they die anyway?

A jury is meant to be representative of the community. Presumably, in a society that is primarily fundamentalist Christian, the juries would be primarily fundamentalist Christian also.

An Atheist president wouldn't see the end of the world as a good thing, as Christians do.

I don't think any Christian President has ever made plans for Judgement Day (except possibly that classified code for the nuclear missile strike plan).

I can't find any studies on it, but I'd put a lot of money on Theists being generally more homophobic than Atheists. How about just about all Muslims and all Evangelical Christians for a start?

Strawman, that doesn't mean that atheists aren't homophobic. Most Christians I know (liberal, as opposed to fundamentalist) are perfectly fine with homosexuals in their friendship groups. There aren't that many evangelical Christians, all things considered, they just take up the most air-time (due to their evangelism).

Considering that there are more theists globally than atheists, it's no wonder that there are more homophobic theists than homophobic atheists even given equal propensity, meaning that the homophobic theists get greater air-time. Again, you would be wise to target the homophobes, and not stereotype the religion.

PS: Skreeran just handed you your own ass with his biblical knowledge.

Skree took Leviticus out of context and will have his own ass handed back to him, thank you very much. And while we're at it, here's your ass back too.

Post by Skreeran

Post by Squishalot

And it is that sort of things that causes the Westboro Baptist Church and Christian hate crimes against religion.

Besides, Christian God is supposedly the same god as Jewish God. Does he not find homosexuality to be abominable anymore?

See my edit. Those are the rules when you live in his land. He still thinks it's abominable, I'm sure, but people are free to do as they wish. People like the Westboro Baptist Church are extremists who take the Bible out of context, unfortunately.

In that respect, I can understand why non-Christians take the Bible out of context, but I would have thought, as a free-thinking, science respecting atheist, that you should apply the scientific method and actually understand the issue. To use the Westboro Baptist Church as a stereotype of the rest of Christianity is not a logical, nor scientific, method.

Well if that's what you mean by it, then I feel strongly that religion is a negative force on humanity, and that people shouldn't believe it. So I can question it too.

That you can, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean you should disrespect it though.

(And that says nothing about questioning the existence of God. Only the negative factors on humanity.)

The people in the middle east who behead homosexuals also earnestly believe that they're doing the right thing.

I'm sure PETA thinks the same thing about you. There's always a different perspective. My view is that if they don't try to foist their beliefs onto me, then I won't foist my beliefs onto them. Which is why I get along extremely well with Christians generally, and horribly with evangelical Christians.

I truly hate christianity, because it hurt me. My parents had good intentions in teaching me to be a Young Earth Creationist, but they ended up hurting me because of religion.

That's sad, unfortunately. My parents (read: mother) tried to bring me up to be a good non-denominational Christian, but perhaps due to that logical part of my brain, I never really bought it. It was all a big story for me. I didn't have the huge bubble burst when I found out that Santa wasn't true, I spent my wee Christmas hours trying to disprove his existence. (Stupid me, I should have milked it for all it was worth.)

What I'm getting at is, look at the end result of the story. At the end of the day, you can be a drug-doing, alcohol smashed hippie who loots, pillages and murders for a living. Instead, you've got an education, some good morals (why those morals? what makes homosexuality 'not wrong' to you anyway?), and a head that's attuned to look at things logically (even if it needs pointing in the right direction sometimes). I won't say that I haven't felt screwed over by my parents at times. But that doesn't mean that I haven't learned from it, let go of the past and moved on.

Edit: I know you're in ICC, no need to rush a reply. I'm at work anyway, so I'm replying when I'm free (it's a slow day).

Post by Skreeran

Honestly, I think my hatred of religion and Christianity in general is mostly due to my own having been hurt by it, combined with my utter disdain for human ignorance.

As for Westboro, I wasn't stereotyping Christianity by invoking them, but rather pointing to the harm that belief in an imaginary invisible skydaddy can actually cause. I can also point to Islamic radical terrorism, the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and many other religiously motivated atrocities. All because of the belief in an invisible man in the sky, so to speak.

As for context, I look at results. It doesn't matter what the Bible actually says if the majority of people misinterpret it. If you're a nice, non-homophobic, non-evangelical, christian who won't mind electing an atheist, and won't take issue with my non-belief, I have no issue with you, but the overwhelming majority of christians that I know and deal with on a daily basis are not like that. I don't care what your religion professes to teach when its followers all act differently.

On a bio break, but still in ICC. 'Bout to take on Rotface.

Post by Squishalot

As for Westboro, I wasn't stereotyping Christianity by invoking them, but rather pointing to the harm that belief in an imaginary invisible skydaddy can actually cause. I can also point to Islamic radical terrorism, the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and many other religiously motivated atrocities. All because of the belief in an invisible man in the sky, so to speak.

People go to war for all sorts of reasons, not just religious ones. It's generally about power, and conducted using religion as a rallying tool.

Think about the Vietnam War. It was a war about political ideology. How is that any less pointless than a war about religion?

I don't care what your religion professes to teach when its followers all act differently.

This is my point. Don't take issue with the religion. Take issue with the people who act wrongly.

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Squishalot

Thinking an event would be a good thing is not the same as planning for it. You can know that a night of drinking will probably be enjoyable without planning any more than that, I'll be drinking at night. You'll be going to heaven on Judgement day.

As long as it doesn't influence their performance as the country's leader, I have no qualms with what a person believes about the afterlife.

26.3% of all Christians in the US are evangelical, that's a lot. Incidentally, whose position am I misrepresenting? I see no fallacy in my statement. Evangelical Christians by definition must believe that homosexuals should be stoned to death, evangelical muslims too.

26.3% is a minority, technically. And this is the US, which is the evangelical capital of Christians in the world. You'll find that the global number is significantly lower. And the fallacy isn't in your statement, it's in your logic. Just because there are a lot of evangelical theists who are homophobic doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of atheists who are homophobic.

~~But gawd, 26.3%, that means about 14% of the US is evangelical Christian. Christ, no wonder the world thinks you're all insane! :)~~

Edit: I just realised - 26.3% is of all people, not just of Christians. That represents about 1/3 of Christians. What the report also states is that only 16% of Americans in their puny survey (4000 is not a reasonable survey size to gauge a population of 300 million!) are of non-religious nature. I'd challenge the validity of the survey, personally. That's essentially taking 80 people from each state and lumping them together. Doesn't America collect religious information in census data?

Edit 2: I also note from the report that the political views of atheists and agnostics is remarkably close to that of Modern Catholics, generally speaking. And Jews.

You don't think that with homophobic statements such as the one posted and people who believe that every single word of it's containing book are true, that there would be more theist homophobes than atheist, even with a 1:1 comparison?

I think that homophobia is drilled into us as a society (and possibly biologically), not necessarily from a religious point of view. Think about your reaction if a pretty girl laughed at a joke and placed her hand on top of yours. Now, imagine it was a bloke. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't feel a slight, instinctive reaction to pull your hand away, and treat it as an invasion of personal space? Why should your reaction be any different between men and women? Don't you recoil at the mental image of a gay guy pounding your ass?

This is looking purely from a logical perspective. I have no qualms with homosexual friends of mine, and would happily vote for a law that would allow gay marriage, but I'm fully aware of my subconscious tendancies to avoid physical contact with gay men. Or other men generally. I'd think that most men would too, even if they wouldn't admit to it. I have an Anglican friend of mine (male) who loves to fool around and stroke the arm of a Catholic friend (also male, but who is slightly homophobic), just to get a reaction.

Edit: Think about the origins of religion, from an atheist / agnostic perspective. Who do you think invented the homosexual rules in Leviticus in the first place? Homophobia existed long before religion did.

Oh so it's okay when Jewish homosexuals or anyone who wanders into Israel get stoned to death? Wow, you're more amoral than I thought.

I think that if you live or visit a country, you live and die by the laws of the country. If you import drugs into Indonesia and get sentenced to death, then hell yeah, I believe you deserved it. I wouldn't want the death penalty here, but I wouldn't defend your right to life, when you knew what you were getting into and threw it away.

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Squishalot

If you look at the source, evangelicals may be technically the minority, but they're the largest sect of Christianity.

Not really. They're a minority of Christianity generally. The largest single denomination is taken up by Catholics (read the text, not just the numbers). Evangelicals are comprised of several different sects and denominations.

I never suggested there are no homophobic atheists (indeed I provided a link where the topic is being discussed by atheists), but I stand by my wager that there are more homophobic theists than atheists. Hell, I'll even test it myself. Watch this space.

I never said that there weren't. I'm just saying that there are homophobic tendencies in mankind, and it's concentrated by religion because the baseline is established. And my point was that there aren't that many evangelical Christians around, it's just exemplified in the US (where I'm supposing that you live). So any test or survey you conduct, based in your region, will also be biased. Scientific method at work.

I value human life more than you then, and I bet a lot of other people do. Nobody should be executed because they're born differently.

You possibly do. But if you throw yourself in front of a car, I'm not going to berate the driver for killing you. If you're born differently, and you disagree with that way of life, then move away, or conform quietly. That applies in both developed and developing countries.

I don't want you free and running around in my country just because you're born with a genetic predisposition to murder. They don't want you free and running around in their country just because you're born with a genetic predisposition to have sex with blokes. The only difference is your moral judgement on how valuable those points are. The obstruction of freedom is the same.

Post by Skreeran

So if you're born gay, you have to move away (meaning getting a Visa, papers, money for moving, and everything) from your family and friends before they find out, or they'll kill you, and that's totally fine?

Post by Squishalot

If my friends and family wanted to kill me for being gay, yeah, I'd want to get away. Wouldn't you?

That, and nobody is born '100% gay', there is a sliding scale between being hetero and homosexual. If I were a gay person who wanted to coexist in such a society, I would repress my urges and stay there. If I didn't want to have to, I'd move away to a place which wasn't as prejudiced.

I still believe the same applies to any other trait. If you have an urge to shoot things, go move to a place that won't hold it against you, or suck it up.

Post by Skreeran

If my friends and family wanted to kill me for being gay, yeah, I'd want to get away. Wouldn't you?Well, that's not as easy as it sounds. I'm 18, and I couldn't just leave the country at will, and I'm in the US. Now imagine trying to move away from a developing country, getting your papers an money for moving, all while keeping your sexual orientation secret. How will you explain your moving away without letting them suspect that you aren't heterosexual.

And from what I understand, someone can be born completely homosexual.

Post by Adamsm

If my friends and family wanted to kill me for being gay, yeah, I'd want to get away. Wouldn't you?

That, and nobody is 'born' gay, there is a sliding scale between being hetero and homosexual. If I were a gay person who wanted to coexist in such a society, I would repress my urges and stay there. If I didn't want to have to, I'd move away to a place which wasn't as prejudiced.

No one knows if your born gay or not, but even if you are, your suppose to live a lie for the rest of your life?

Post by Squishalot

Well, that's not as easy as it sounds. I'm 18, and I couldn't just leave the country at will, and I'm in the US. Now imagine trying to move away from a developing country, getting your papers an money for moving, all while keeping your sexual orientation secret. How will you explain your moving away without letting them suspect that you aren't heterosexual.

I'd do my best to hide it, the same way that I would have to hide my murderous tendencies as well. If they found out, I'd say that I was attempting to deal with it and purge it from my life. Weave a story that keeps me alive and conforms to their expectations.

No one knows if your born gay or not, but even if you are, your suppose to live a lie for the rest of your life?

No, only so far as you're willing to conform to said society.

At the end of the day, to both of you, you're proposing the idea of living in a society that is violently objectionable to gays. Not just a few elements of society, but society as a whole. Why would you, as a gay, want to live there? Why would you want to live with people who would kill you if they knew about your sexual preference? For the sake of standing up for your rights? Hell no, I don't want to be a martyr, and I don't think you guys would either.

If you want to, or have no choice but to, live in a society, you conform for the sake of peace and order. Then, once you have the opportunity to, you get the hell out of there.

If this country was a dictatorship, and this anti-homosexuality policy wasn't in line with the beliefs of the population, then I could see there would be a problem - oppression and the like. But if the community sees homosexuality as abombinable, then that's life. Literally.

Post by Skreeran

But what was once plain homophobia has transformed into murder, thanks to religion. The belief in an invisible, all powerful, imaginary man.

Post by Squishalot

But what was once plain homophobia has transformed into murder, thanks to religion. The belief in an invisible, all powerful, imaginary man.

See my point to DoctorLore. Leviticus was written by somebody. Presumably, those views were the views of the Israelites at the time. Homophobia existed before religion.

Either that, or God exists and read out Leviticus word for word to Moses. Take your pick.

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Why Your Religion?

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