Varian Thread

Post by 451455

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Post by Dralas

See, this is why I've finally given up on these threads. I've just lost all hope that there are many people willing to see from both sides of a story, not just only one side so blindly.

Post by taurenmoo812

Curious fact is that the Forsaken can trust the Horde. Even though those same Forsaken once fought against them.

In the forsakens case most of them have become twisted by what happened to them, so there different people from what they use to be, though some of them still possess there morals they once did in life.

But with the forsaken, who were once humans of Lordaeron, examples like the Kirin Tor, the Draenei lead by the Naaru (Sha'tar), Alexstraza and the red flight, the blood elves (once high elves) the cenarion circle and more, all these races and people were once effected by the horde, but they no longer see them as the old horde it once was, and accept them as allies against the true evils in the world.

The only ones who refuse to look past old grudges for what happened in the past are those affliated with the alliance, and now more then ever with Varian Wrynn forcing his view harder then ever, despite all the other factions I mentioned making it clear they have risen above such petty grudges as Varians.

Post by Achloryn

Many, commoners and leaders have the same right to be mad as Varian.

And many have chosen to forgive and trust the Orcs.

Only the Varian's Alliance didn't.

quite right, but i never said that varian was the wisest person in the world. Some people cannot get over what's happened to them in their past. That doesn't make his stance right by any means, that's just the way of the world.

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Post by Arkham

That is largely due to the influence of the Dreadlords in their organization.
If we're saying that the Orcs are not to blame for their demonic corruption (and that does seem to be the prevailing attitude on this forum) then why should the Scarlets be considered any differently?Because a lot of the members they picked up were like them in thoughts, people who already had a hatred of the other races and believed that human's were the supreme spieces on the planet, even over their old allies the dwarves and the elvish race.You got a source for that? Because I've never heard that one before. Only the part about the Dreadlords taking the Scarlets too far down an extremist path. Not anything about a latent superiority complex that already existed.

I'm sorry but this isn't valid. I'm sure people know this.

The shadow council operations were all revealed when they were destroyed by the Second War's warchief.To the Horde, yes. No one sauntered up to the Alliance and said, "oh, these were the guys behind assassinating Llane, btw."

Post by Skreeran

To the Horde, yes. No one sauntered up to the Alliance and said, "oh, these were the guys behind assassinating Llane, btw."They have a book about it... :P

But in all seriousness, Valeera knows Garona's mind controlled, Jaina knows it, Aegwynn knows it. Shouldn't Varian know it by now?

Post by Adamsm

The Scarlet Crusade is a group of maddened zealots so dedicated to the removal of all undead that they commonly attack the living. In the Western Plaguelands, the Scarlet Crusade strikes against the Scourge from Hearthglen. Many Knights of the Silver Hand remained on Lordaeron for several reasons ranging from missing the fleeing boats, to a sense of duty to clear their homeland of the undead. With the destruction of Lordaeron in front of them and the knowledge that Arthas had betrayed them, some knights actually went mad. They hunt the undead in Lordaeron with a zealousness that frightens. Many innocent mortals have been killed through misunderstandings, or simply "just making sure". These paladins have a frightening policy: When in doubt, assume the person is undead and kill him. These knights would never admit that they walk the same dark road that led to Arthas’s damnation, but few of them continue to follow the three virtues. Those who question their leaders are assumed to be undead sympathizers and are slain. Many serve the Scarlet Crusade out of fear, as to speak up means instant death.

The Scarlet Crusade is what happens when mad zealots take over a good cause. While the Alliance is in agreement that the Scourge needs to be eradicated from Lordaeron so they can return home, few Alliance members would agree with the methods used by the Scarlet Crusade. The Crusade’s members are mostly soldiers — many are Knights of the Silver Hand — who saw such devastation wrought by the Scourge that they resort to extreme measures to destroy the undead. This includes killing any mortal they assume to be undead, killing mortals to get to undead or killing mortals who may sympathize with undead. “Sympathizing with the undead” is how Crusaders interpret someone arguing that their methods are severe. They are the natural enemies of the Scourge and the Forsaken, but they are also the enemy of anyone who cannot prove that he is alive — usually within ten or so seconds. The Crusade has indeed destroyed several undead encampments on Lordaeron. They may end up alone on the continent — or more likely, die trying. The Scarlet Crusade sees no difference between the Forsaken and the Scourge and battle the Forsaken zealously.

Despite its excesses, the Crusade is a powerful force in the eastern kingdoms, having already destroyed several undead encampments in Lordaeron and defeated a number of dangerous Liches as well as the Dreadlord Beltheris. They are expected to continue battling until either the Scourge are driven from Lordaeron or the Crusade itself is destroyed.

The Scarlet Crusade distrusts any non-humans although they once had other races, such as High Elves and Dwarves, in their ranks. That work Arkham?

Post by Rankkor

Shouldn't Varian know it by now?

he doesn't want to know it xD, his precious war would go "kafrikaboom" the moment he admits that garona has been doing all her evil deeds due to mind-control.

That is largely due to the influence of the Dreadlords in their organization.
If we're saying that the Orcs are not to blame for their demonic corruption (and that does seem to be the prevailing attitude on this forum) then why should the Scarlets be considered any differently?

see? :D that's a common tactic for a point being smashed, deviate the topic to another place.

I said that the scarlets are terrorists, due to their extreme radicalistic ways and their buring desire to "purge" the world of all undead, as well as all the living that don't worship the light.

and u go all "but that's due to the influence of the dreadlords" dude, I never said otherwise, of course is the dreadlord's fault, but is also their own fault for being too zealots to see what they are becoming.

the scarlets that opened their eyes to what the dreadlords in disguise were doing left, those that remained are as guilty as the dreadlords themselves for all the atrocitys they comit.

as such, being experimented on serves them right, hey what goes arround comes arround.

and also : "If we're saying that the Orcs are not to blame for their demonic corruption " who's saying that? I'm not.

the orcs are tottaly responsible for their own mess, it was greedy leaders like ner'zul gul'dan, grom and many others who damned the orcs by williingly give themselves to the demons.

sure they were lied to by kil'jaeden who disguised himself as the spirit of oshugun (in the same way the dreadlords disguised themselves as crusade leaders) but in the end, after they were fed the lies, it was them who chose to chew on those lies.

it was them who chose to drink the blood, and it was them who brought about their own perdition.

and believe me they paid dearly for it.

untold amounts of orcs died on the war against the draenei+first war+second war, and also the entire race was imprisoned for 20 years, became slaves used for entertainement by risking their lives.

they were reduced to be treated like animals and be contempt to do nothing about it, and worst of all, once they were freed of their curse, they are now punished to live with the consequences of what they have done, and saurfang is evidence enough on how tormented many veterans are for the atrocitys they comited.

nobody here is saying that the orcs were inocent of the whole demonic pact thingie, after all a pact is a mutual agreement, in wich both sides agree to what's done.

but the horde has freed themselves of their demonic taint, and while some peple are willing to recognize this , others do not.

was admiral's proudmoore atack on ogrimar justified? what did the orcs do to him? (other than regaining their freedom?)

and now to answer darkton's post

Post by Rankkor

Second, Taruenmoo, you need to stop harassing me for being a Varian and Alliance fan, you are a Varian and Alliance-hater to a huge degree, and i dont harrass you for that. Dont do the same to me; on most articles you have been to, you barley miss the chance to insult, bash, or attack Varian. Stop

I'm proud of you bro' this is the correct attitude we must all take when doing these discutions =) this is a good step in the right direction and I hope all our discussions remain civilized and polite.

I mean it, nice change bro :D (don't be so hard on taurenmoo, we all make mistakes, I know, I made them too)

however, bashing insulting and atacking varian is perfectly valid, we all have the right to express our opinions of ficticious lore characters, harrasing users=bad, harrasing fake non-existant characers=allowed (a moderator could confirm this, but I dont know if they read "all" the posts unless those are reported)

I for example have the right to say that drakuru is a back-stabbing royal piece of crap who deserves to die, and that's not against the forum rules.

however, if I bash a fan of drakuru (dunno if any exist) now that's a violation of the forum rules.

you did bashed sylvannas pretty badly, let's look besides the point if she deserves it or not, you did atacked her a lot, and that's normal, nothing wrong there, we all have diferent opinions.

one more time just in case

Atacking lore characters that don't exist and are just ink and sprites=allowed.

Atacking living breathing wowhead users who defend their beliefs=big no no.

and now, to debate your argument (wich I'll admit, is QUITE better than your previous ones, this time u did made it good)

Varian cant go to Wowwiki and find out Garona is mind controled, and that Cho'Gall lived; let alone who Cho'gall is

an uninformed leader is a poor leader, the people of azeroth don't have wowwiki, but they have something called EARS, others have investigated and they do know what some others ignore.

just because varian didn't bothered to do his homework the moment he reasumed his throne doesn't excuse him for his ignorance.

a leader owes it to their people to have all the facts in the hand before making desitions that can affect positively or negatively their people.

A smart leader would not listen to what others tell him

flawed logic, any true leader should listen to others, being stuck-up is not the same as being smart.

depeding on others is not weakness for that matter.

Hitler during world war II didn't listened to his advisors, who warned him that the economy of germany was falling apart, and that they needed to add resources to the military to suport the war.

but did he listened? nope, he wanted the concentrations camps done to purge the jews, and this mistake was one of many that costed him the war.

you need to understand that NOBODY is all knowing all sapient super-wisests mega one.

in order to make the best desitions posible, u NEED to add your knoledge to that of others in whom you trust.

agreed, he can't just take thrall's word because he does not trusts him, but why distrust Tirion? why distrust jaina? why distrust the queen of life?

that's not wisdom, that's stubborness, and that's a luxury that kings can't afford, if varian can't bring himself to trust in ANYONE he's gonna find himself wihout allies, and all alone in a strugle he wont win.

You can not deny how easy it is to confuse Garona to attack from the Horde's side

despite your best intentions you still haven't responded why does it looks like the horde did it.

the race issue can't be taken as proof as there are many orcs that don't work for the horde, and taurens and trolls and blah blah blah.

if a bunch of humans hit the town of razor hill the orcs can't assume they are with the alliance because many humans aren't affiliated with the alliance.

and this is the reason race enough is not suficient proof.

just because "an orc did it" doesn't mean the horde did it.

and taking that as your ONLY evidence to issue a judgement shows a lack of true wisdom, and a heavy presence of Tunnel-vission.

Jaina is sad, someone needs to tell her Shady Rest Inn has been burnt to the ground, and North Hold watch is razed, both by one person...THE HORDE! (i know no one likes the Grimtotems, but they are horde non the less

wait....... the grimtotems are horde? o_O then why the heck do they still kick my ass every time I go to dark cloud pinnacle? (that was sarcasm xD sorry)

first off, this shows a lack of true research, the grimtotems are not part of the horde.

before u say "but magtha grimtotem is part of the horde and she's at thunderbluff" I gotta remind you that all of the scarlet crusaders are hostile to the alliance, and still there are 2 alliance-friendly scarlets, one in stomrwind and one in desolace, but that doesn't mean the crusaders are wiht the alliance, because they are not, they are rebel paladins.

same goes for the grimtotems, 3 of them are horde-friendly but the rest are hostile druids.

if you had made a horde toon (and I can see from several of your posts that so far u havent) then you would had seen that at thousand needles, a tauren horde leader gave me a quest to kill several grimtotems at dark cloud pinnacle, and what's more, on dark cloud pinaclle there is a tauren princess held hostage by the grimtotem, this princess is horde, and she was kidnapped by the grimtotems.

if the grimtotems are horde, why do they kidnap a horde member? why a horde tauren orders me to kill grimtotems? and why every single frikkin grimtotem on dustwallow marsh, thousand needles, and feralas is hostile to the horde?

the answer is simple, they are not horde. they are rebel tauren who believe that tauren should never had affiliated to the horde in the first place, you can consider them to be almost scarlet crusaders exept these ones are taurens, adn instead of being paladin+holy light based, these are druid+nature magic based.

dude, northwatch hold was hit badly, because they were ATACKIGN the horde, they dind't anwsered to theramoore, they were part of the kul'tiras marines under the command of admiral proudmoore, and both them and that ruined hold near durotar have been doing skirmishes against the horde, unprovoked, despite having a singed truce treaty that makes their atacks ILLEGAL.

and as for the shady rest inn.... that wasn't the work of the horde, that was the grimtotems, if the horde was responsible then why do we have a quest chain to investigate and punish the culprit?

and don't forget, if u had done the horde version of the quest u would had seen that some teramoore deserters were implicated too.

both by one person...THE HORDE

I loled a bit there, the horde is not a person, we are the people, we are an army, WE-ARE-SPARTANS (sorry for the lame joke, I cound't resist :P)

if they "changed" now, then i doubt Golden would have put the experiment part in RotLK

the book is based BEFORE the game, and their change started AFTER the game. there is a time gap of at least 1 to 2 years there, lots of time for a lot of crap to happen.

also they haven't changed yet, tehy are still the same'old forsaken we all know, but the change started. it is still far from completion, but it's started.

now is up to blizz to either develop that story arc or leave it here to rot (literally)

is too soon to tell, for now we can only wait, and time will tell.

(on a last note, this time you did wielded good arguments, keep at it bro' u're getting better at this :D)

Post by Skreeran

Post by Rankkor

By the way, speaking of Varian not taking Tirion's word on the orcs...

It's always bugged me that he cannot see orcs as honorable, but he lets former Scourge with much more recent crimes into the Alliance (not just as allies, but as full-fledged members) without question, just because Tirion said so.

skeeran, the only reason he does that, is because these former scourge don't have green skins :P

if we think about it, the death knigts are exactly like the forsaken, these are people who died due to the scourge, got rezzed as undead to serve the lich king and they broke free of their slavery.

why then didin't the alliance accepted the forsaken? these were the citizens of lordaeron we're talking about, they didn't accepted them because tehy look ugly, they are deformed, their bones show up.

the death knights are dead too ,but only recently, some still look identical as if they were still living, and others are only slightly pale with small shows of decay.

in other words since these guys still look half-decent tehy are allowed to be in.

if they are ugly, then (poiting at the valley of heroes) that's the door, good luck out there.

he uses the whole "i've been boned" argument as an excuse for his dark little secret wich is not so secret that he hates the orcs.

jeez, I think it could be actually easier for anyone to convince him that the burning legion is a bunch of honorable people, than to convince him that the orcs have honor.

Post by 347401

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Post by Skreeran

By the way, Darkton, in case you read this...

I try not to "bash" Varian. I do my best to see things from his point of view, but when I do find myself disliking him, just remember: I don't like him because he doesn't like me.

I'll admit it. I'm biased. I see the lore as my characters would. Nakresh, my orc warrior, who's outlook most represents my own, didn't do anything to Varian. He has fought alongside humans and night elves before, and as far as he's concerned, appearance has no meaning. Whether the man he fights next to is a human or an orc, it makes no difference to him if they have honor and passion. He did not drink the demon blood (being only a year old at that point), and he did not fight in the first or second war. But Varian wants him dead all the same. That is why I don't like Varian. Maybe as an Alliance player you're more wanting revenge on the Forsaken or the orcs, and so you agree with the guy who is just as outraged as you are, but from my perspective, I (my character) did nothing to him, and he wants me dead. He wants my warchief dead, who's even less guilty of anything than I am. That just doesn't seem right to me.

Edit:

Varian has never said directly that he intends to commit genocide.

Exhibit C, the line right before what you quoted:

"King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come"

It sounds to me that Varian simply wants to break up the Horde, as if they are a violent gang, to lessen their threat to the Alliance.And how does he intend to do that without killing a large part of their races? What's to stop them from regrouping just like they did under Thrall? It's like someone saying they're going to disband the United States. There's not much you can do to disband it without wiping it out.

Post by 347401

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Post by Skreeran

Of course there would be casualties, there would be with any conflict. This doesn't mean he's about to go all Auschwitz on them.Well, he intends to keep it permanently disbanded, right?

Really though, the whole conflict could have been prevented if Thrall wasn't such a pansy when it came to keeping Garrosh (as well as the Forsaken) under control. ;pNot much I can say about that. Lord of the Clans Thrall would had knocked Garrosh on his ass by now, and Varimathras would have been dead the moment Thrall saw him.

Post by Arkham

That work Arkham?No. The only part of that which addresses racial superiority is the very last sentence (I don't know why you bothered quoting that giant block of text when the only part of it that dealt with what we were talking about is the very last sentence).

And all that very sentence says anyway is that they distrust non-humans, which we knew already. It doesn't even discuss "why" at all. It doesn't even begin to answer the question.

see? :D that's a common tactic for a point being smashed, deviate the topic to another place.I am not "deviating the topic." I am bringing up a similar situation as a parallel to the one we are currently discussing, to demonstrate existing precedent for excusing actions that are a result of demonic influence. It's called a comparison. That's a perfectly valid thing to do--it's bizarre and nonsensical of you to say that this means my point is "being smashed." If anything, the fact that this precedent exists means I am quite correct.

and also : "If we're saying that the Orcs are not to blame for their demonic corruption " who's saying that?

...

nobody here is saying that the orcs were inocent of the whole demonic pact thingieFlagrantly untrue. Lots of people say that, not only on this forum but throughout the WoW community in general.
I am simply saying we should have consistency--if the Orcs are innocent of wrongdoing, then so are the Scarlets. If the Scarlets are to blame for their corruption, then so are the Orcs.

Post by Skreeran

Flagrantly untrue. Lots of people say that, not only on this forum but throughout the WoW community in general.
I am simply saying we should have consistency--if the Orcs are innocent of wrongdoing, then so are the Scarlets. If the Scarlets are to blame for their corruption, then so are the Orcs.Thrall: "To pretend it did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."There are two key differences here:

1. Many of the orcs alive today did not drink the demon blood. Many have, but not all.

2. The orcs are repentant of their terrible actions and have had to accept the consequences of their actions. The Scarlets have done no such thing.

Varian Thread

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