Varian Thread

Post by Rankkor

By "timing", i meant during a peace meeting, of all places

if the horde wanted peace they wound't sent an assassin. and they dind't the main point I wanna emphatyse here is that the horde was inocent.

Yeah, i know... but it still looks like the Horde was behind it.

why because the assassin was an orc? thanks for making my point, that's how varian thinks, and that's not how a leader should think, just because an orc did it doesn't mean the horde did it.

is not like she was wearing the horde tabard or yelling FOR THE HORDE, anything like that.

varian just made "on the fly" a judgement based on limited information, a judgement that was wrong.

did garona acted on behaf of the horde? NO

did varian assumed she acted on behaf of the horde? yup yup.

did he had any evidence she was sent by the horde? nope, none whatsoever.

did varian listened to the opinions of others? nope, and that's a biggie, leaders should learn to listen, (OJO; not obey, listen, and take their opinions as a factor in your desition, it's not the same as blindly obeying)

If i was trying to assassinate someone, and it failed, i would deny every thing

if my enemy shows willingness to agree to peace and suddenly an attack happens, I should give them the benefit of the doubt.

why? because this is a new horde, not the old one.

that's what I meant when I said varian can't let go.

he still assosiates the old horde with the new one, and makes them "guilty by association"

Post by Adamsm

Yeah the assault group on Theramore was cultist made up of all races, and they set it up so that Horde races struck the Alliance, and the Alliance races struck the Horde forces. And yes they sent Garona up front, but seeing as it was suppose to be a sucidial charge.....

And yeah, Garona has been controlled by the Shadow Council from birth, she is a child of... "forced breeding" between a Draenei Female and a Shadowmoon male.

As for the Yogg thing... I still don't agree with the Death of King Llane being in there, as it says that the old Gods had their tentacles in with the Old Horde, which would be kind of hard as they were already being manipulated by the Legion.

Post by 451455

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Post by 451455

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Post by taurenmoo812

Yeah, attacking in Defence

Fine, yoggy had a roll, but then again...
"As i slew your father, i will now slay you!"
"My mother has done nothing wrong, cant you see?"

Anyone would be blinded by anger from what Garona said, and i have to give credit to Varian for not beating Med'an senceless for saying Garona did nothing wrong.

Looking past or conveniently forgetting the 'she was mind controlled' part?

And a boy defending his mother, when under such control, you think that gives him just cause to wail on him for defending her, and even gives him just cause to threaten him with death?

I'm beginning to think the reason people see varian was a hero is because there as short sighted and narrow minded as he is, so its a perfect ideology for them.

Post by Rankkor

Yeah, it looks like Horde was behind it, its plainly obvisous

why are you repeating what u said already? running out of valid arguments?

for the love of god give me a straight answer, WHY does it looks like the horde did it? because she was an orc? just because of that?

come on don't give me that.

and so far u're avoiding this answer.

the horde sent garona YES or NO?

pls a straight answer, no more evasions or replays of previous posts.

Post by 229054

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by taurenmoo812

The rest of the Forsaken just show "twisted behavior" when it comes to life and other things. Which is perfectly understandable as they've been through some of the worst experiences out there (becoming undead. being expelled/killed by his family and there goes).

You know you raise an intresting point in this. In every thread about Varian, people keep posting how his excuses for hating the horde and wanting to kill them all is justified for what happened to him.. and yet most of these people from posts I've seen would never say the same about the forsaken, never saying the forsakens actions are justfied, despite what has happened to him is far worse then anything that foop of a king.

Makes you wonder if they would sing the same song about Varian if he was an undead and used blight as a solution to kill the horde, though they probably would.

I applaud how he's defending his convictions. Yet, he uses stupid logic against most arguments and simply ignore many others.

Sounds like a true varian fan if you ask me.

Post by Rankkor

that's what I'm trying to say here.

he said it was weird that garrona hit varian first. on page 2

I provide an explanation on how that's her backup plan in case the assasination fails.

he claim it still looks like the horde did it.

I ask why, because she was an orc?

and he says again that it still looks like the horde did it?.

this is not a flame, and I really don't mean any sort of disrespect at all brother and if somehow this is offensive, I apologize, but that's not how a debate works, a debate works this way.

subject A establishes a point

Subject B tries to counter that point wiht a point on his own.

Subject A provides defense and a new argument in favor of his point.

Subject B provides an argument to try to break the defence provided by A, and at the same time use this argument to solidify his own point.

and this goes on untill either subject A or B proves his point to be the valid one.

repeating an old defense is just not a proper debate tactic. that's all.

using flawed logic is also not a proper way to go, and now that we are on debate class 101, I'll show you how to properly quote someone, so that you don't have to quote the whole post-

again, I mean no disrespect at all bro, I just want you to expose your arguments in a more organized way, that's all.

to quote the whole post just press the quote button, but to quote a specific line here is how to doit.

Step 1: click and drag the mouse over the line you want to quote.

Step 2: hit Ctrl+c

Step 3: type this (without the dots)

Step 4: Hit ctrl+v

Step 5: type this (without the dots)

and presto, you quoted a line of someone elses post wihtout quoting the whole thing.

I hope this helps, and once more just in case, I mean no disrespect whatsoever dude.

I think I actually admire the passion on wich u defend varian, but I think u shold doit the "proper way".

Post by Rankkor

Post by 46491

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Post by Adamsm

All sarcasm aside (and slightly OT), does anyone have any quotable lore - either in-game or out - that proves that Sylvanas no longer intends to kill every living and unliving thing on the face of Azeroth? There's been a lot of "that's old lore" and "I don't think she'd do that now" opinions, but nothing concrete has been put forward indicating that she has officially changed her mind on that point (and apparently there is evidence in the RotLK book that shows she hasn't). Actually, the quote from RotLk is a few months before the Wrathgate I think. But I'm of the mind that if something massive happens again, Sylvanas might end up using the Blight aggresively again; and she won't care which side she hits it with.

Post by Skreeran

Well, according to most of the Horde supporters around here there's nothing wrong with using the Forsaken Blight (it's just for defense, dontcha know), so I guess it would be cool if Varian did the same.Well, as far as I can see, it was designed for offensive use against the Scourge, and defensive use against anyone else who challenged their right to live.

All sarcasm aside (and slightly OT), does anyone have any quotable lore - either in-game or out - that proves that Sylvanas no longer intends to kill every living and unliving thing on the face of Azeroth? There's been a lot of "that's old lore" and "I don't think she'd do that now" opinions, but nothing concrete has been put forward indicating that she has officially changed her mind on that point (and apparently there is evidence in the RotLK book that shows she hasn't).I have proof.

http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=115893.5#p1366804

By the way, I didn't see your quote, hymer, until now, and so pardon my delayed response:

As far as I can tell, the Forsaken Blight has two effects:

1. Destroying the Scourge:

This one is obvious. It's meant to be used on Scourge to get revenge on the Lich King. Pretty clear cut.

2. Killing living things is also an effect:

We know this is true, but what the argument is about is "for what purpose?" Alliance fans are quick to jump up and say "Sylvanas wants to destroy all living!" but I don't think that's true. It may have been true at one point, but I doubt it's true now. Take, for example, the Blood Elves...

I haven't lost any love for my homeland or its people, as you know. I've fought tooth and nail for Silvermoon to be allowed a place beside Undercity and Orgrimmar at the negotiating table.

Now... She wouldn't kill them unless she had some sort of sick plans to bring them into the fray with her. But the Forsaken Blight does not reanimate.

Nor does Sylvanas ever show any twinge of disloyalty to the Horde, actively calling Thrall Warchief and meeting with him in Orgrimmar. So either she keeps her intent to betray them a very well kept secret (so secret, in fact, that not even Forsaken players get the sense that she plans to betray them), or she doesn't plan to betray them, which seems more likely.

So it comes down to: Does Sylvanas plan on using it on the Alliance?

I think the answer is: Kinda.

She certainly wouldn't hesitate to use it on the Scarlet Crusade, or the Alliance, should the Alliance attack Forsaken territory. But would she actively and aggressively attack the Alliance?

I don't think so.

That would most likely be considered a betrayal of the Horde, if they were at peace with the Alliance, and logistically she's not capable of fighting off the Horde and Alliance, and I doubt she would try after seeing how much the Forsaken need the Horde after te Battle of Undercity.

Now, if the Alliance and Horde were at war... Well...Specifically, her love of the elves is what would stop her from killing them.

And I've never heard that she intended to kill every unliving thing as well before.

Post by Adamsm

Specifically, her love of the elves is what would stop her from killing them. That keeps the elves safe.... but if a massive split came in the Horde, and one side offered her protection, while the other wanted to kill the Forsaken.... I could see her using the Blight in a situtation like that as well. And of course the Blight is like all other weapons of mass destruction; you can load it in a missle(or you know plague barrel), but if someone misses with a catapult, or the wind suddenly shifts, your own side could be in as much danger as the enemy.

Post by Achloryn

In every thread about Varian, people keep posting how his excuses for hating the horde and wanting to kill them all is justified for what happened to him.. and yet most of these people from posts I've seen would never say the same about the forsaken, never saying the forsakens actions are justfied, despite what has happened to him is far worse then anything that foop of a king.

Here's the thing. Varian does have a right to be angry. Like it or not, he does. He has a right to hate the horde for what happened to him. If he were any normal person this sort of prejudice would be justified.

HOWEVER, Varian is not a normal person. He is the king of stormwind. People look up to him as a leader. A leader is supposed to be intelligent, wise, and above such petty BS. He, of course, can be angry, but his public derision of the horde is inexcusable and will only lead to many more problems with the horde and within his own kingdom.

Post by Arkham

for the last time, they are humans, is not like they have a driver's licence that says "citizen of stormwind" or anything, for all we know those could be members of the syndicate, or the scarlet crusade, both of wich stormwind considers criminals, that alone is not enough proof, as there are thousans upon thousands of humans that are not affiliated to stormwind, lordaeron, or the alliance in general.That is very tenuous logic. There's nothing identifying them as members of any of those other organizations either. It doesn't matter if they're Stormwind citizens specifically or not. Why are you suggesting Varian is only supposed to care about Stormwind humans? He's never shown any indication whatsoever that he completely disregards the well-being of all non-Stormwind residents or something.

he is not a human superesist

right, that's why he uses racial slurs against all races of the horde isn't it? he can't just call them orcs, nope, he calls them Dogs, green-skinned aberrations, savage animals, uncivilized brutes, and other forms of slurs directed at dehumanizing his hated oponents.

sorry mate, but a racist individual is that who dismisses another race as inferior to his ownHe said that Varian isn't a human supremacist (his spelling errors aside). That is correct.
He didn't say Varian wasn't racist. Those two things are not the same thing. Stop trying to conflate them.

Post by Adamsm

right, that's why he uses racial slurs against all races of the horde isn't it? he can't just call them orcs, nope, he calls them Dogs, green-skinned aberrations, savage animals, uncivilized brutes, and other forms of slurs directed at dehumanizing his hated oponents.And we all know that orc's dont use any kind of insulting language about the "Paleskins", the "Dirt Grubbers" and all the other oh so amusing euthism's that they enjoy using about humans.

And technically, racism is about your own species, so how two seperate races born on different worlds could be racist against each other makes no sense.... now xenophobic works.

Post by hymer

You know why I accept Varian for what he is, and for what he does?
Because I believe that's what the writers want me to. I don't think they meant to make a genuinely controversial character, just one you could hate if you're a Horde fan and like if you're a Horde foe.
I think the writers have done what they could to make Varian short-sighted about the good things about the Horde, but in such a way that you can't really blame him on a human level.
I think they've looked at a lot of conflicts in the real world, and taken hints from those. I don't want to invoke them here, but there are a lot of similarities to the stubbornness displayed by leaders and peoples. Once someone is classified as the enemy, especially while one's people are dying to that enemy, then it's extremely difficult to turn back. Conflict bears its own inevitability with it. Add to this the fact that the writers are always looking for ways to sabotage the peace.
Garrosh' behaviour, it seems to me, is directed at absolving some of the blame from Varian, essentially putting Varian in the right on several counts. Varian will have an easier time, now, in saying things like "We may differ on many counts, but in our defence against the Horde incursions here and here, we all stand together!"

About the whole "Varian is a racist", I think we're in a bit of trouble. Real life racism is based on prejudice, not on scientific fact. What Varian may more correctly be described as is a speciesist. Humans can't Shadowmeld or Cannibalize, and Orcs can be proved to be better at shaking off stuns. You can, in fact, assign certain characteristics to the 'races' (something of a misnomer).
He may also be accused of seeing his own culture as superior to that of orcs, but this is far less controversial than being a racist. Being an anglophobe may not be an outstanding character quality, but it's not as nearly as damning as being a racist. Considering humans to be better than, say, seagulls is also less controversial.

I wouldn't like Varian as a person if I met him in one of his tempers. He's a pretty scary guy. But as a character in a story, I like him immensely. He's strong, has plenty of flaws (and thus humanity), and follows a strong code of beliefs. He feels like he's actually there, and whenever he turns up, something interesting is going to happen. He is undaunted and direct. The only flaw, as a character, is a rather weak backstory.

Post by taurenmoo812

Here's the thing. The Forsaken does have a right to be angry. Like it or not, they do. They have a right to hate humans for what happened to them. If they were any normal people this sort of prejudice would be justified.

See how easy it is just by changing one or two words.

Post by Rankkor

And we all know that orc's dont use any kind of insulting language about the "Paleskins", the "Dirt Grubbers" and all the other oh so amusing euthism's that they enjoy using about humans

slurs like that can be expected on the general population, that's fine, u can't controll what an entire civilization says or thinks, but a LEADER or better yet, a king is suposed to be above such things.

no leader of the horde uses such slurs when adressing the alliance.

and as far as I know, no other leader of the alliance uses them either.

only varian

(and BTW garrosh isn't a "leader" per se, he's a general at best, but not the representative of the orcs.

what I meant adams, is that a king is more than just a leader, he's suposed to represent the best his people has to offer, and so far varian represents more of a punk than a king. whereas thrall for example represents the best of the best the orcs have to offer, to the point that the catacysm site describes him as a "living symbol of nobility" because even those who are not horde are impressed by his heroic actions and sefllessness attitude.

terenas was an example of how a king should act.

I'll just repeat what the "mouth of sauron" said on the lord of the rings but modify it a bit to fit it on wow.

"It takes more than a nice armor and a cool set of swords to make a king"

now xenophobic works.

now this was brilliant bro' :D since enlgish is not my main language I didn't remembered the correct word for describing varian's attitude to the orcs, and yhea I know racist is not quite the right one since that would only aply to black humans or whatever.

Xenophobic is the right word.

thanks bro' for pointing that out =)

He said that Varian isn't a human supremacist (his spelling errors aside). That is correct.
He didn't say Varian wasn't racist. Those two things are not the same thing. Stop trying to conflate them

hehehe english is not my main language, when i saw his wording I tough he meant to say "super racist" xD.

but yhea u're right at that point.

That is very tenuous logic. There's nothing identifying them as members of any of those other organizations either. It doesn't matter if they're Stormwind citizens specifically or not. Why are you suggesting Varian is only supposed to care about Stormwind humans? He's never shown any indication whatsoever that he completely disregards the well-being of all non-Stormwind residents or something

jeez, this is the reason I hate when blizzard leaves "loop-holes" like this, because they never bothered to add proper identification to those human experiments.

because of that, those in favor of the horde insist that they could be members of the cult of the dammed/twillight hammer/scarlet crusade/syndicate or whatever, point: people the world is better off wihtout.

and those against the horde insist that they are poor inocent members of lordaeron or southshore, or stormwind, poor inocent villagers who did nothing to deserve such fate.

alas on this point is IMPOSIBLE to prove who's right and who's not because despite all research I did, I didn't found a single lore source that can confirm where did those humans came from.

however, I do use logic to draw a conclusion to this matter.

on northrend there are other forsaken posts were they do use test subjects as well, and on those places the humans are identified as scarlet crusaders.

furthermore, on all of forsaken lands all former citizens of lordaeron have joined the scarlet crusade, wheter they want to or not, so if they needed subjects for the experiments they woudn't just go to a far away land like southshore or stormwind to take their pound of flesh, tehy'd take members of the crusade, that are right at their doorstep, that's it.

I know, that's a long strech but sadly it's the best I can offer. =(

and as for varian's love for non-stormwind citizens, quests like the end of the defias brotherhood chain prove that he does hates corrupt humans, and if those humans at the undercity lab had the tabards of the scarlet crusade, Presto varian wodn't feel so bad about them.

after all they had it comming for turning into radicalistic terrorists (yhea, to me the scarlets are the closest thing to terrorists in wow)

Varian Thread

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