Varian Thread

Post by Adamsm

Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. Einstein.I prefer mine, lots of warcraft leaders could learn from that.... real world leaders too.

Post by Patty

Post by 451455

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Skreeran

He does?Well, he won't follow Alexstrasza, A'dal, Rhonin, or Tirion's examples in Horde diplomacy, and they're all older and wiser than him (with the exception of Rhonin, who is roughly as wise and as old as Varian).

Varian has never touched a kid just because he is a orc, nor has he ever said they should die for thier race. Even Skreeran went against you here.
Until this is proven, please dont say it.Well, I didn't really go against him. I more corrected him on a point: We don't know Varian would kill or enslave Horde children. He might, he might not. We haven't seem him with a real opportunity (meaning, he's sufficiently distanced emotionally, won't get in trouble for it from the other Alliance and third party leaders, and has a real reason, rather than: "Here's some children, will you kill them?")

I fear he would. Perhaps he wouldn't kill them (that's a little harsh, of course), but I can definitely see him enslaving them.

Varian is nothing like Garrosh.
Varian has never wanted war for the hell of it, and he has never wished for a emo death. Read more about him, he hates war, and only resorts when he has no choice.Well, he does have a choice. Two meetings is not enough to deem peace impossible. And few offenses and insults are worth starting a war.

Varian knows more about how war affects children, his life was shattered by it.
I, for one, am proud of Varian for talking back, that is like telling a bullied kid not to stand up for himself.
Rhonin wanted to talk human-to human, if some people who he declared war on show up, he should take notice to avoid getting bum-rushed from behind.
Garrosh started with the insults at the tourtament, most of Varian's quotes were just cheering on the Alliance... most, anyway.Varian definitely is fond of the insults... Savages, pigs, dogs, green-skinned abomination, to name a few...

If he knows how much war can ruin lives, why is he so intent on fighting one? He's not standing up, he's overreacting. Right now people are dying to the Scourge and the Old God stands to destroy the world, and he's too focused on "standing up for the 'downtrodden' Alliance" to be arsed to focus on the greater good. Just look at Icecrown Citadel... How much stronger would we be if we weren't fighting eachother on the way up? Who started that fight? I doubt it was Saurfang...

This is the realitey of war, like in WWII, innocent Warsaws countries lost thier lives because of the Nazis. But should that mean the other Allys countries should not fight back and just let thier own people die?
No, its more simple then two people stuck on old-hatreds.You mean innocent people in Warsaw Poland, or innocent people in other countries, right?

Anyway, Varian isn't fighting back, he's picking a fight. The Horde isn't some Nazi regime, intent on conquering the world, it's a group of people who, at the moment, have the exact same goals as the Alliance. A few people picking fights on either side isn't worth fighting a third war in addition to the one against the Lich King and an Old God.

The Horde aren't attacking innocent people. They're, for the most part, fighting the Scourge. The Alliance is also fighting the Scourge. A few skirmishes on either side isn't worth trying to destroy a potential ally in this bigger war.

Post by taurenmoo812

Varian has never touched a kid just because he is a orc, nor has he ever said they should die for thier race. Even Skreeran went against you here.
Until this is proven, please dont say it.

Hohoho.. sorry, but unless its purposefully been pushed under a rock, the fact he willingly admited he would kill a children, being Med'an, meant he is as bad as Garrosh in this term. Deny it and your be clearly misrepresenting the facts.

Varian has never wanted war for the hell of it, and he has never wished for a emo death. Read more about him, he hates war, and only resorts when he has no choice.

Your discribing Thrall, and trying to paint up your faulted leader as better then he is. He's damaged good at best.

Garrosh started with the insults at the tourtament, most of Varian's quotes were just cheering on the Alliance... most, anyway.

Another one sided opinion from someone whos never played the horde side. You haven't even looked at the opposing difference. The speech made when a horde player is playing says very different, and designed that way.. but you only interprit it from the alliance point of view.

This is the realitey of war, like in WWII, innocent Warsaws countries lost thier lives because of the Nazis. But should that mean the other Allys countries should not fight back and just let thier own people die?
No, its more simple then two people stuck on old-hatreds.

omg..

Did you just compare the horde as being like the nazis?

I can't even fathom how messed up you are making that comparison.. either that or your more deluded then I first thought on your varian loving.

And if you can't handle that as an insult Dark, I suggest to think twice before comparing my faction to a group of murdering bigots that gassed innocent women and children

Post by Adamsm

the fact he willingly admited he would kill a children, being Med'an, meant he is as bad as Garrosh in this term.Didn't we clear all this up in the actual thread about this? Yes, he threatened to kill Med'an.... but he didn't actually do it(due to unforseen circumstances), I honestly doubt he would have, as I have no doubt his son would have thrown himself in front of the man-boy who had just saved his life, which would have stopped the strike..... I'm really hoping anyways.

It's a little different with Garrosh; Varian was going to kill Med'an because he was Garona's son and do it as an act of revenge..... Garrosh seems to think slaughtering children to keep them from fighting when there older is a good thing.... There is a difference there, not much of a difference, but a difference.

Post by Patty

It's a little different with Garrosh; Varian was going to kill Med'an because he was Garona's son and do it as an act of revenge..... Garrosh seems to think slaughtering children to keep them from fighting when there older is a good thing.... There is a difference there, not much of a difference, but a difference.

....So if I went and killed someone's son because they killed someone close to me I would be justified, right? Even threatening it?

There is nothing worse than the thought of burying your child before yourself. Varian is a parent himself - which makes his actions even less justified.

They both would probably kill kids if they had the 'optimal' conditions for it. I really don't think the reasons for wanting to kill children matter. They both want to do it - In all cases it is wrong.

Post by Rankkor

ok darkton, let's start the debate, point by point, however before we begin, I wanted to make absolutlely clear that garrosh IS a lot lot lot worst than varian, on that thread I compared garrosh to varian because most of varian's flaws are in garrosh, often amplyfied too, but what makes varian better than garrosh is the fact that while both have the same flaws, varian has some good qualitys, and garrosh doesn't. now that we're clear on that point let the debate begin =)

here is another flaw of him, lack of respect for the eldest and wisest, a flaw that Varian also has

respecting the elder consists on listening to their words, putting weight into them, and admitting that they are wiser than you, and be willing to trust in them.

on varian side, he knows tirion is a true veteran, he has fought both orcs and scourge, and if tirion says there's honor in the orcs, varian should trust tirion, now, we know that varian hasn't met any decent orc, and tirion met eitrigg, but the point remains, tirion is a figure of autority and venerable wisdom, who offers varian an "outside of the box" view, and varian dismisses it. and this is only tirion, there's the fact that the wont listen to the red dragons either.

Garrosh side, he knows Varok Saurfang is a REALLY WISE veteran, saurfang has been fighting since before garrosh learned how to walk, he's fought humans, draenei, scourge, and silithid, he's been involved in perhaps every major conflict that the orcs have known, just to name a few of saurfang's wars are the draenor wars, the first second and third wars, and the an'quiraj war, this makes saurfang both a force to be reckoned with, a folk hero among the horde, and someone who knows about war more than garrosh does.

however, when saurfang offered garrosh advice on how to porperly fight the scourge, all garrosh said were disrespect to this veteran, dismissing his advice, and even slightly insulting him, just like varian, a wise consel was given to him by an elder veteran, and garrosh (in a worst way than varian did) rejected this advice and disrespected this old veteran.

so, respect for the elder=Varian: failed/ Garrosh:double failed. (same flaw on both)

again, another Varian flaw injected here, he seems to think that even the children of the alliance are not innocents, and they should be killed so that they don't raise arms against us when they grow up

now this was perhaps misinterpreted, you can blame my english for that one for not wording it correctly.

let's put the word "children" outside for now and let's analize this from another angle.

For varian, there is no such thing as "inocent" in the horde, I already gave you proof of this darkton, and I can pull 6 other comic pages where he very bluntly and clearly says that every member of the horde is a demon-controlled Backstabing kingdom of murderers and thieves, for varian, just because garona did something bad to him, he sees every other orc as her, so even the orc farmer in the barrens with his 2 kids, are monsters who can't be trusted, and who must be either killed or locked up.

For Garrosh, there is no such thing as inocents in the alliance, every one of them wishes to kill the horde, and none should be left unharmed to be given that chance, for him, both the soldiers with the big guns, and the inocent people of goldshire represent a dire danger to the horde, because all of them wish to see the horde dead, and that's completely false, unlike their king, there are plenty of humans galore who have even come to admire the orcs, and don't want to continue on with this senceless war.

as you can see, that's another varian flaw, that's injected in garrosh, both of them refuse to see any inocent, or good or honorable person in the oposite faction, for both of them all of the oposing faction represents a danger that must be dealt with swiftly and without mercy. (maybe I should had worded that better on the original post)

let's get back on the "children" word, we already know that garrosh believes that even children must not be spared from the killing, as they would grow up and take arms against the horde (ignoring the fact that a true warrior NEVER fights an oponent who can't fight back, that's one of the new codes of honor of the new horde that he ignores)

as for varian, this is a draw bro', why is it a draw? because this is just like the humans used with the forsaken for their experiments. you can't prove me wrong and i can't prove you wrong. (on this argument you insisted that they are inocent villagers, and you can't prove it, and I insisted that they are scarlet crusaders and can't prove it, so it's a draw)

there is no lore yet to show if varian would be willing to exterminate every member of the horde down to the children, and no lore to say that he would let the kids live, for now we know that he doesn't trust any orc, and he sees all of them as monsters, and his only encounter with an orc kid was with med'an, and again, blinded by his hate for garona, he threatened to harm the kid. and that's a point against you, but let's not take it in consideration.

here's what skreeran said about it I fear he would. Perhaps he wouldn't kill them (that's a little harsh, of course), but I can definitely see him enslaving them and I agree, killing or enslaving are just 2 sides of the same coin, both are equally bad, for death is a quick painless end to an inocent life, while orcs in slavery are subjected to the kind of horrors thrall and so many other orcs suffered at the hands of the humans.

Varian is nothing like Garrosh.
Varian has never wanted war for the hell of it, and he has never wished for a emo death. Read more about him, he hates war, and only resorts when he has no choice

dude, read my words correctly, I never said that varian is like garrosh, quite the oposite, I said garrosh is like varian, it's not the same.

you see, since garrosh is gonna be the new warchief of the horde I wound't be so *!@#ed off, if he was at least his own character , but instead of having a real personality of his own, he's just a more hardcore radicalistic clone of varian ,and that's what I actually said in my post (if u got it the other way arround then again blame my english bro)

the core of what I said whas that I don't want a watered down varian clone as the leader of the horde (note that I said varian clone leading the horde, not garrosh clone leading the alliance, it really is NOT the same)

Varian knows more about how war affects children, his life was shattered by it.
I, for one, am proud of Varian for talking back, that is like telling a bullied kid not to stand up for himself.
Rhonin wanted to talk human-to human, if some people who he declared war on show up, he should take notice to avoid getting bum-rushed from behind.
Garrosh started with the insults at the tourtament, most of Varian's quotes were just cheering on the Alliance... most, anyway

I'm, gonna do an up-close analysis of this block here.

I, for one, am proud of Varian for talking back, that is like telling a bullied kid not to stand up for himself

so you're proud that your king acts like a bully rather than be bullied? dude, to stand up against a bully means that if you get pushed arround, or punched arround, you fight back, but if someone insulst you the decent thing is to just let them be, this is the same for forum users, if User A insults User B, the right thing to do for User B is to ignore User A, if B joins in insulting User A, all he gets is becoming the same inmature failure that A is.

the way civilized people act is by using logic and reason first and violence later, if one side insults the other, then the insulted side must not join in, for in doing that nothing good EVER comes out, NOTHING. a few harsh words trown at you only affect you if you let them, that's why you must ignore the insults, and not let them drag you on to something more serius.

thrall understands this, jaina understands this, ronin too, tirion too,. but varian and garrosh don't

both of them love to insult the oposite faction, and to spark a war that will affect children on both sides, all it takes is a few harsh words trown both ways.

so no, you shound't be proud of your king reducing himself to the level of riff-raff rather than acting like royalty should, with dignity, decency, and civilization.

Garrosh started with the insults at the tourtament, most of Varian's quotes were just cheering on the Alliance... most, anyway

actualyl no, and...... nope-

you say that because you've only played the tournament from the side of the alliance, when you do trial of the champion, or trial of the crusader, the lines spoken by each leader are diferent if you are alliance and horde.

heck, when varian gets to the tournament, tirion comes personally to greet him, and what varian says? he calls the orcs savages, and yes that's an insult, and no, nobody provoked that insult he said it first, uncalled for.

and while I'm sure u must have seen varian's lines on the alliance side of the trial of the champion/crusader here are some of his lines in the horde version of this same instances.

"I didn't come here to watch animals tear at each other's troaths" (and no garrosh didn't said anything insulting to him to cause him to say that, all that garrosh said before was "finnaly a fight worth watching"

varian didn't come to the tournament to cheer for the alliance, he believes the tournament is a piece of crap, and he said so himself (with more polite words) to tirion.

the only reason you see him cheer is because u haven't steped inside as horde, where the only thing he does is trow insults at us, and thrall does indeed go exclusively to cheer for the horde, and he absolutely never insults the alliance, can't say the same for garrosh though =(

bottom line bro' Varian loves to insult those he deems inferior to him, and garrosh does the same, wich is yet another varian flaw injected in garrosh.

as you can see darkton, I never said varian was like garrosh, I am not saying that I don't want garrosh to have some flaws, what I am saying and I'll highlight it since this is the core of my point :

"if garrosh is gonna have flaws, the most decent thing blizz could do would be to give him his own damn flaws, not copy&paste varian's flaws and put them in garrosh"

nothing and I mean nothing upsets me more than having a clone of varian leading my people, that's just not right.

Post by 451455

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Patty

...The Forsaken are nothing like the Nazis.

It's fairly unanimous that the Scarlet Crusade are the equilivant to Nazis in WoW...And I hardly see the Forsaken running that organisation.

Anyway, the excuse of saying that "Oh, but Garrosh started it!" Reminds me hugely of primary school playground arguments. Immature. The pair of them need to grow up if you ask me, seriously.

Post by Skreeran

Alextraza, all she did was tell him somthing at the end of Wrathgate, and he heeded it (Even though I think he did not under stand exactly what she said...).Well, he's got people at the tower. He knows she is one of the wisest beings on the freakin' planet. He knows she treats the Horde as equals to the Alliance.

A'dal, Varian may easily not even know what a Narru is.He had better, or he's a really crappy representative of the Alliance. The Naaru are practically the gods of one of his allied races, and if he doesn't know what they are, he's really out of touch with at least one of the races he claims to represent.

Rhonin... well, all they had was one meeting, and Rhonin has never really been close to the Alliance, diplomacy with the Horde affects them both differently.Well, He's someone who affects Varian, being the leader of one of the biggest footholds against the Lich King on the continent. Varian choosing to ignore him is just another brick in the wall of Varian's close-mindedness.

Tirion,.. I will give you this, Tirion is more knowledged then Varian on the subject, and Varian could learn a lot from Tirion. But seeing as how Varian listened to what he said on the death knights, Varian does not completely ignore him.. and I dont recall Tirion ever sending Varian a letter saying to trust the Horde. And Varian does not disrepect him.He never sent a letter, but it's implied in the Tournament that he doesn't want them fighting. "Only by working together can we succeed!"

Or as he says in Honor Above All Else: "Alas, we fight this battle divided. The Horde and Alliance are in the throes of war and will lend us no support. We must remain unyielding in our cause! For what choice have we to do otherwise?"

If Varian enslaved a orc, it would make no sence. He said it himself that he thinks slavery is wrong, and it does not just seem his style. What do I think, personaly? I think the worest he would ever do is hold one prisoner.Then he'll kill them? It's clear he doesn't believe that he can "allow these savages free reign in our world..." and that he doesn't want them to be "allowed to roam free -- unchecked."

And most importantly, he thinks the world would be better off "without and twisted Horde..."

How exactly does he intend to do that and still allow the orcs to be free?

I definitely think he is capable of trying to kill the entire race, or at the very least trying to enslave them.

Two peace summits are more then enough, how many times does a guy have to alomst lose his head everywhere he turns before it becomes plainly obvious that its not a good idea?It's not enough. Let's set up a hypothetical here.

In this hypothetical, it's 1985 and I'm the president.
Russia/The Soviet Union is prepared to nuke the US, and the US is prepared to nuke Russia. Whatever happens in the war, thousands will die. So instead of saying "No one bullys the United States! We're prepared to fight back!" and risking thousands of lives, I will try to make peace. If I've already attempted two peace meetings and was nearly assassinated by a Russian radicalist group (and the Russian leader was almost killed by American radicalists >.>), I won't just say "Screw it, nuke 'em!" instead, I'll try to find a way to discuss peace that works. I'll meet with the Russian leader in a neutral third party country instead, or have him come onto my soil instead.

Two failed peace meetings is not enough to start a war that will affect thousands (or millions, depending on how successful each sides attempts to kill eachother are...) of lives, including your own people that you claim to protect.

Anyways, I think that the humans the Forsaken tourtered and killed are villigers because it just sounds more story-like to have a meaning-full war, then a small misunderstanding... besides,Stop right there. You are basing your perception of the Forsaken on assumptions, which may very well be wrong.

Sylvanas admits herself that the only good human is a dead human,Well, you can't really blame her, considering every human she's met as a Forsaken has wanted her dead, and her people likewise. If only one of the races can exist, she wants it to be hers.

Kinda like Varian.

and the scarlet crusaders captured at Ebon Hold threatened to destroy the death knights,hat about the Cenarion Druids that they kill for practice?

wheres the humans in RotLK where crying untill they could not anymore.How does that make them not Scarlet Crusaders? They very well could be Scarlet Crusaders captured in Undercity that threatened to destroy the Forsaken.

And RAS clearly has operations in Hillsbrad.We don't know if they are anymore. We'll have to wait until Cataclysm to see how the RAS is doing outside of Undercity post-Wrathgate.

As for insults...

Varian loves to insult us, whether or not Garrosh started it...

Savages, Pigs, Dogs, Filth, Murderers, Thieves, Green-skinned Aberrations... The list goes on. Saying that he's "only" responding to Garrosh just proves that he's decending to Garrosh's level when it comes to opinion of the other side.

They're both being childish.

Not even gonna respond to calling the Forsaken Nazis.

Putress and the RAS, maybe, but they're over and done. Varian wants to wipe out the Horde, not just the Forsaken.

I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

Post by taurenmoo812

I can understand why you like Varian so much dark, given both he and yourself have the same ability to hear, but not listen.

Garrosh started with the insults at the tourtament, most of Varian's quotes were just cheering on the Alliance... most, anyway

I've already said this, depending on what side you play, it then passes who makes the insult first. You have never played the horde side, at least not in any of these situations you discribe. The different in Totc is the dialog is different depending what side you play as in there.. but you wouldn't know this, so you base what you say on a one sided opinion.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Patty

Jaina's busy hoisting her corset up so Thrall gets a better view of her rack.

She tells Varian off for ranting about us "savages" And says "They're worthy fighters - you'll see." Or something very much along those lines.

Post by Rankkor

Strange how Garrosh and Varian cheer/boo, yet Thrall and Jaina are fairly silent, except for Thrall's order to Garrosh to shut up.(Don't know if Jaina tells Varian anything, don't have a horde high enough level to test it.)

jaina doesn't tell varian to shut up, she tells varian that the horde is made of honorable warriors and that they are worty oponents. (edit) I saw your comment patty xD and just so you know, I LOVE the new model jaina has :D absolutely cute.

and yhea darkton, on the tournament varian spat insults wihtout provokations, outside of the tournament he called the horde a bunch of savages when nobody insulted him.

and on trial of the champion he calls watching the horde players figtht "watching animals tearing at each other's troaths"

those are insults, and both were unprovoked, so no varian is not an inocent dove who fights back, he's also as much a bully as garrosh is, because he loves to stirr up the fire needlessly.

I mean, calling us horde players animals was COMPLETELY uncalled for, even more when nobody called him that in trial of the champion horde version.

If Varian enslaved a orc, it would make no sence. He said it himself that he thinks slavery is wrong, and it does not just seem his style. What do I think, personaly? I think the worest he would ever do is hold one prisoner

well dude, I simply can't understand you, first you say that varian doesn't want to exterminate the horde, only to "disband" it.

then you say he doesn't want to enslave them.

then I ask of you what the hell does he want from us?

when you deal with an enemy there are only 2 and only 2 choises, a graveyard, or a cage, that's it, you either kill them or imprison them.

you can't really defend varian saying that he's against genocide, and then backoff and say that he's also against enslavery, because when dealing with the horde he WILL have to choose one of these 2 options when dealing with them.

and no matter how you flip it, both are equally bad.

Two peace summits are more then enough, how many times does a guy have to alomst lose his head everywhere he turns before it becomes plainly obvious that its not a good idea?

but how many times we gotta tell you, it was not the horde's fault in either time, in fact, the first time, it was varian's own people (the defias) who kidnapped him, and on the second time, the servants of the old gods steped in.

a true leader would see that if a THIRD PARTY want's to prevent peace between the horde and the alliance, then that's exactly what he must do.

by refusing to make peace with the horde he's doing exactly what the old gods and the black dragonflight want him to do, since I'm sure deathwing and the other baddies are planning the cataclysm as we speak, and if they fight an united horde and alliance, then their fate will be the same as the burning legion in mount hyjal.

the bad guys learned their lesson in hyjal, if the horde and alliance work togheter, they can acomplish ANYTHING, every villain is defeatable, every one of them can fall, thrall understands it, jaina understands it, and I'm sure tyrande must understand it too, I'm sure velen would understand it, but varian in specific can't and wont understand that only united is when they can defeat everyone.

instead he is glad to obey the old gods, and refuse to work with the horde for a common goal.

just to put a small example, the orcs are deforesting ashenvale, since they need wood, but the eastvale logging camp has plenty of wood, if the horde and alliance worked togheter, instead of the horde deforesting warsong gulch, they would trade copper from durotar's mines in exchange from wood (this was all brought up in theramoore's peace summit, before it was interrupted by the old gods)

instead of having the skyreaver and the ogrim's hammer (the 2 most advance gunships in the world) destroying each other on the road to icecrown think of what they could do to the enemy togheter.

believe me when I say this, thrall is and allways will be open up for any peace offer from the alliance, varian on the other hand isn't it took his son to convince him to go to the second meeting, even when the first one was interrupted by his own people.

Anyways, I think that the humans the Forsaken tourtered and killed are villigers because it just sounds more story-like to have a meaning-full war, then a small misunderstanding

again and again, you are imposing your personal opinion and dismissing other's.

you think is perfectly logic that the forsaken bring humans from far away to the undercity for their experiments (distances in-game are small, you can ride from undercity to arathi in less than 20 min, but in lore these zones are much larger, and a trip back and forth these 2 zones would take days, maybe weeks) rather than grab humans who are already next to their doorstep (on lore the scarlet monastery is really nearby the undercity)

just let it go man, there is no way you can prove that the humans there are inocent villagers, just as I can't prove that they are crusaders, but I can say that OTHER humans captured by the forsaken ARE crusaders, such as their test subject in brill, and on venomspite, if they used crusaders there, what would stop them from using crusaders in their main base? it's a win-win situation, since they get subjects for their experiments, and at the same time eliminate an enemy that's a direct threat to their capital.

(and a little off-topic TODAY IS MY BIRTHDAY :D I'm now 30 years old ^_^)

Post by taurenmoo812

by refusing to make peace with the horde he's doing exactly what the old gods and the black dragonflight want him to do, since I'm sure deathwing and the other baddies are planning the cataclysm as we speak, and if they fight an united horde and alliance, then their fate will be the same as the burning legion in mount hyjal.

Exactly. He's nothing more then a puppet for them the same as Garrosh is. You can try to paint up Varian in whatever way you want, but he's easy to push and manipulate.
The obvious thing is Garrosh is the same, but Thrall isn't. This is why Garrosh being given leadership for a time will make the conflict greater to match Varians orc hatred.

Both of them are puppets.

Post by 451455

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Adamsm

Dont start this bull again about comparing Sylvanas to Varian, elves owe thier existance to humans, wheres humans dont to orcs.
Sylvanas has met several good humans in life, Blightcaller much?

/points at Garithos' shreaded corpse

Is THAT what you meant by every human she met as Forsaken? The same she double crossed?
And I can not belive youof al people are trying to label Varian as a human superemist, what do you mean by "If only one race can exist" being used with Varian?
Garithos, who betrayed the Blood elves, who was intending to kill Sylvanas, same as she was going to kill him...... seriously, Garithos wasnt a good guy, hell he was a horrible commander and an idiot, he reaped what he sowed. And for the last frellin time.... The Elves owe the human's nothing, they only joined at the 2nd War because they were honouring the old pact with Arathor, and yes, the Horde attacked the High Elves, but they were also attacking the humans, the dwarves and the other races. And technically, every race owes their lives to the forces at Hyjal; otherwise, Archimonde would have won and the Legion would reign supreme.

Varian is in no way, shape or form a puppet, mabye Garrosh, but not Varian.
This is exactley the person to lead the Alliance we need, wheather you will ever learn or not. The Horde assassinated the prince of Stromgarde by orders from Vol'Jin, Thrall's right hand man, and if that is not a good reason to declare war, then... cant even think of somthing to say right now.And Varian/Bolvar send us to kill the Blightcaller, how is suppose to be this idea for a good human?

Post by taurenmoo812

Varian is in no way, shape or form a puppet, mabye Garrosh, but not Varian.
This is exactley the person to lead the Alliance we need, wheather you will ever learn or not. The Horde assassinated the prince of Stromgarde by orders from Vol'Jin, Thrall's right hand man, and if that is not a good reason to declare war, then... cant even think of somthing to say right now.

Naively ignoring all the evidense put in front of you, like all the facts put to Varian by all sources likes Alexstrazsa and Tirion, shows you only think of Varian in a fantasy state rather then seeing the whole truth.

He's a puppet, easily used by outside forces to bring more pointless death and discord, and he's so ignorent of whats happening around him it doesn't take much. Garrosh is the same, but well almost nobody on the horde side likes Garrosh, you try to paint up Varian like he's above all moral constrants, when he's on the same level as Garrosh now.

And really? the Stromgarde thing, thats what you had to reach for? That really does just cancel it out with the number of trolls his father murdered over the years. And in terms of none scripted lore, his sword used by the trolls could very well have tipped the balance of events in Zul'Gurub and the god Hakkar.
Varian also isn't that thoughtful of distant allies, all he bases his hatred on now is personal.

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