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Varian Thread
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Post by
389776
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Post by
Adamsm
First of all, Whats the icecrown invasion?
Second, they operate in Dalaran becuase Vereesa wants to be by Rhonin(?), and they played a huge role in the Argent Tortument. Dont tell me your sugesting Vereesa is neutral towards the horde, after all she says about them.
Third, yeah, but they have been placed under the Vanguards command, aka Varian's command.You know, the Icecrown Citadel invasion that the entire reason for the tourney grounds. And yes, she hates Horde, but they seem willing to work with the Sunreavers, the Horde version of the Covenent. And no, the Vanguard is not under just Varian's command, it's under his, the two Bronzebeards and Vereesa, the Vanguard isn't his private army.
Post by
229054
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451455
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229054
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451455
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229054
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Post by
Skreeran
/tar Delterius
/applaud
Post by
451455
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Post by
Skreeran
Oh please, deathstalkers and apoticarys want all humans dead. Now you have a problem with them defending them selves? All the humans want to do is fight back ffs. They dont want to stand and let the forsaken kill them, now with Varian back, we can
end
them.Scarlet Crusade started it. I don't approve of the RAS or the Defilers, but it's not like they don't have a reason for their bitterness.
If they want to defend themselves, they would not want to conquoer Stromgarde (might i add the trolls, at Vol'jins request, want thier prince dead because he has somthing they want? Thats worser then lawful evil) or Gilneas?They haven't tried to conquer Stromgarde. They barely have a presence in Arathi Highlands. And no, it's not worser than Lawful Evil. It's not good, but it's not worser.
Post by
46491
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Post by
Skreeran
When I clawed my way out of the grave, I thought my family would welcome me with open arms. Instead, they drove me out of the village, screaming in a language I could no longer understand.
Well, you see when the phrase "Hello, honey! I'm home!" is translated from undead to common, it comes out as "BBRRAAAAAAIIINNZZZZZZZZZZZ!". Just an unfortunate linguistic fluke...
But seriously, what did they expect? THEY'RE FREAKING ZOMBIES! If you're in an area that has been (and in some parts, still is) occupied by the Scourge and you see a zombie, are you going to say "Hey, that one kind of looks like dad, let's talk to it..." ? - HELL NO!
Without question, the situation blows, but it's not like they've all spent the last five plus years trying to win back the hearts and minds of their former countrymen: a few have (like Leonid Barthalomew), but far more are interested in
ripping out
the hearts and minds of said countrymen.Well, you can't really expect them to go "Well, we deserve to be hunted down and killed, so no hard feelings."
They're willing to fight anyone and everyone who challenges their right to exist.
Post by
Arkham
Gilneas invasion (
bolded retranslation
):
Humans
have been facing the
Undead
for years, then a whole
splinter faction
of them appears? The most natural reaction is siege or even invasion for purging.
Remember that until very recently, the
Undead
were
voracious, brutal slaughterers
.As you can see by my word substitution, the same excuse has been leveraged for Humans attacking undead, yet this excuse usually gets dismissed... as Skeeran has just demonstrated in the post just prior to mine.
So why is the same excuse suddenly valid when it's Undead attacking Worgen-cursed humans?
Post by
hymer
I must admit, I have only glanced over the discussion on the Forsaken here. Let me try to point back to the original topic, then. Once again inspired from the Jaina thread.
What makes a good field commander?
Side by side comparison of Jaina Proudmoore and Varian Wrynn.
Charisma
: Inspiring your forces and fostering loyalty.
A highly important factor, as it directly affects the morale of the soldiers, which translates into their fighting efficiency.
Varian scores better with the masses, who respond very favourably to him. Jaina does better with people who is closer to her own intellectual station, to whom she can explain complex issues and create consensus with.
Conclusion:
Situational
.
Tactical skill
: Directing your forces in a battle.
Important, but good officers could reduce an inadequacy in this field. On the other hand, a commander weak in this field may not have able officers to seek advice from, or can't tell what officers to listen to.
Both have had extensive experience with battle. It seems prudent to assume that Varian has had the superior training. He has dedicated himself to martial pursuits, taught by royal trainers, where Jaina has spent most of her life studying magic, even if tactics was something her father made sure she learned.
It is possible to argue that Jaina may rely more heavily on her officers, but hard to say the same of Varian.
Conclusion: Slight advantage to
Varian
.
Strategic skill
: Directing your faction in a war.
To the field commander, this is somewhat less important. The idea is to win the day. Like with tactics, a weakness here is greatly alleviated by good advisors, but with the same caveat about poor officers.
A very close call. In situations of some diplomatic sensitivty, Jaina would do better most of the time. She has better relationships with many faction leaders. In cases where strong perseverance would be the compelling factor (Churchill style), I'd say that Varian would do better. Jaina would do better against the Horde with its complexities, but Varian is better suited to a relentless struggle against the Scourge.
Conclusion:
Situational
, but leaning slightly towards
Jaina
.
Personal prowess
: Direct, physical influence on the battle.
It could be argued that this matters somewhat less. The personal prowess of both are often used in the same fights (Onyxia, Undercity), and so who is the commander is perhaps less important. Still, the commanders know their own ability better than that of their lieutenants, and are sure to be present at any battle they direct.
Jaina wins hands down. Varian is arguably among the greatest warriors alive today. If he can place himself next to the enemy commander, he may well end the battle swiftly. However, Jaina's magical powers, if used prudently, are more useful overall. Mass teleport would be devastating for positioning, and incredible for getting out of scrapes.
Conclusion:
Jaina
.
Ruthlessness
: Willingness to sacrifice lives.
While seemingly a very unpleasant characteristic, a commander must be able to sacrifice some men; to save others, and to win the day.
Surprisingly, this is about the same for Varian and Jaina, perhaps even weighing more on Jaina's part. Jaina sacrificed countless of her soldiers on Mt. Hyjal, sending them on a clear suicide mission for the greater good. She also allowed her father and his men to be killed by Thrall's forces in the interest of the greater good. Varian can certainly be ruthless, but he reacts very strongly (and not just emotionally) to loss of life among his soldiers, far more so than Jaina.
Conclusion:
Equal
, but could trend towards Jaina.
Command
: Being forceful and masterly.
Again, this is not the most pleasant of traits, but a full belief in the right to command and in own abilities is a positive boon in getting things done. In American presidential candidates, the number of people who see them as a 'strong leader' is considered directly linked to their chances to get elected.
This is Varian's game. He never backs down, he never diverts his purpose, and he believes in his heritage and himself. He even chose to be king again. This makes him a very
strong
leader (I emphasize strong, because this doesn't in itself mean he's right). Jaina is far less forceful, having had command thrust upon her against her will ("All I ever wanted was to study.").
Conclusion:
Varian
.
Final conclusion and personal bias
: They each have their strengths, and they make a great duo. I think Varian in the end makes the better field commander, although Jaina would perform better in certain situations. Still, if two vast armies stand across from each other, the image in my mind of Varian and Jaina in command are different:
Varian eagerly focused on the job at hand, a scowl on his face and booming voice. His positioning of his troops is solid and conservative, confident in his abilities and that of his men.
Jaina would be pale and bothered, trying to calculate her way to victory. She would always have half a thought to getting her troops off the field, and perhaps hope for the enemy to make some mistake she could make creative use of.
Why do I think like that? Mostly, I guess, because when Jaina fights, I control her forces (WC3). In my (biased) experience she's hardly a commander at all.
Post by
HiVolt
Wonderful post, hymer.
I do think that Jaina might have been a bit more hardened by her experiences than you may think, but that's my own opinion.
Overall, the idea of who a better field commander would be, I completely agree that it would more likely be Varian. But I do maintain my opinion that as far as diplomacy and overall leadership go, Jaina is the better candidate for such a job.
All in all, great post, very well thought out.
Post by
Patty
I personally would say that Jaina is a better field commander. I mean, you can't compare the scales of Hyjal to Undercity. By any means.
Although, I think both working together would be best for the Alliance, rather than working against eachother. The Alliance doesn't have a united front, which is more likely to cause dissention in the ranks.
Varian is just too hot headed, I think. Which is why he's not really fit to lead Stormwind atm.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I personally would say that Jaina is a better field commander. I mean, you can't compare the scales of Hyjal to Undercity. By any means.
Although, I think both working together would be best for the Alliance, rather than working against eachother. The Alliance doesn't have a united front, which is more likely to cause dissention in the ranks.
Varian is just too hot headed, I think. Which is why he's not really fit to lead Stormwind atm.
Thats the intresting thing with the leadership roles here.
The horde, despite having leaders for reach race, as the horde answers to Thrall as one union, as he who stands as warchief. Its fortunate that he is a noble and wise leader in this, as when it comes to warfair who is the one force holding back a tide of bloodshed that could be sparked buy this rivalry. (A hell of a job but he still retains his integrity and strength of will with 5 races to lead)
The alliance however, is different. They are not like one huge faction lead by one person, for all there alliances, they remain as separate bodies to each other with there independant leader. The
Only
person who has brought these factions together for one greater purpose for there own survival, was Jaina, when leading them in the battle of mount Hyjal.
Now, all of a sudden, Varian Wrynn steps into the story, and automaticly many people of the alliance assume, because of his attitude towards the horde, that he must be there equivalent of there warchief, that he is there to lead them in the same way Thrall leads the horde.. but the thing is he
isn't
, he's not leader of the alliance, because there has been no indication that the other alliance leaders would follow his beliefs and hatred of the horde.
The alliance still operate as seperate governing bodies, well the horde stands under one banner and all follow Thrall as there leader.
Post by
Patty
I know, but I mean that the Alliance armies are most likely to be Commanded by Jaina or Varian, because of their positions.
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451455
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389776
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