The Future of Lordaeron

Post by Lordplatypus

it is a flame war.
We're just fighting a battle of wits against an unarmed man, to put it simply.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##Insults will not be tolerated.

Post by Monday

We have two conflicting reports of what Taurajo was prior to the massacre. Excuse me if I don't feel inclined to believe the report of the ones who utterly annihilated the town and its people.

Correction, YOU guys have disagreed with me. You don't speak for all Warcraft fans. You are the first ones I have ever encountered who want to challenge the old and well-established facts of Southshore being a military town. Call it what you like in any language you like, but you cannot change the proven truth.

Sorry Snake, but a wiki is NOT an acceptable source.

Very well. Here's a quote from the Warcraft novel: Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War. This particular chapter is written from the viewpoint of Baine Bloodhoof.

Baine did not suggest asking the ancestors to bless what they were
about to do, for he was not at all certain they would approve. He did
not think Cairne Bloodhoof would. There was a mixture of fierce battle
anticipation and unease in the gathering of tauren and trolls; Baine
knew his people well and could sense their divided loyalties. Loyalties
that were in conflict in their leader’s heart as well.
After a few moments—where some chanted, some knelt in prayer,
and others simply stood respectfully—it was time to move forward.
They were on the last leg of their troubled journey. The Great Divide
yawned on their left, and the path curved slightly and bore them up into
gently rolling hills.
“Looks like we caught a break,” Vol’jin said.
“I don’t think any runners made it through to warn them,” Baine
said.
Vol’jin peered up at him from his raptor. “Dey destroyed Camp
Taurajo, mon,” he said.
“Yes,” said Baine. “They took down a military target. And their general
refused to slaughter civilians. He could have given the order to
massacre everyone. But he didn’t.”
Vol’jin’s eyes narrowed. “Will you be showin’ da same courtesy to
dese Alliance?”
“I do not think there are any civilians in Northwatch Hold,” Baine
said. He did not add that he was fairly certain that Garrosh would order
him to kill any prisoners he took. Yes, it was a military target, and
Garrosh was displaying good tactical leadership in wanting to see it
broken.

Bolded the important part. There is an unbiased, completely canon remark from the top Horde warleader stating that Camp Taurajo was a military target.

Dodge that. I dare you.

Not good enough? How convenient for you. Sorry, but you don't get to decide whether support for facts are "good enough". You can either believe the truth in front of you or continue to deny it and claim it false, though I must say to do the latter at this point is just foolish and stubborn. And fyi, there were high-ranking military officers stationed at Southshore, not just guards.

Name them. Give me evidence of the military presence in Southshore. Give me names, ranks, operations, all backed up by the lore. Do it, and I'll believe you. Continually claiming that it's "right in front of my eyes" doesn't help when you refuse to illuminate your point.

Post by asakawa

Folks, if you find it frustrating to debate someone then walk away. I see lots of people getting frustrated and resorting to insults and playground silliness and it's simply not good enough. 4dehorde is arguing passionately but, without having looked at every post in the thread, I see them generally keeping their head.

If you can't do the same then leave the thread and do so without derailing things with accusations of trolling and so on. If I have to return to this thread then official warnings will be sent.

Post by 4dehorde

I still think it's hilarious that I have "a pro-alliance bias" when I play exclusively Horde.

That is awfully hard for me to believe. You whitewash Taurajo as completely innocent. That does not suggest you support the Horde.

So you would rather trust axe-crazy uberparanoid asshilt than baine, who was literally in charge of the race that made taurajo?

I still have yet to see this alleged claim by Baine that Taurajo was a military town. Until actual proof is presented to me, I label it as BS. The only thing that comes close is a biased, non-canon sentence from Tides of War, which does not count needless to say. And your crude opinion of Warlord Bloodhilt is duly noted. I have a similar opinion about that incompetent fool Hawthorne.

4dehorde, I have never seen anyone agree with you; I mean really, when the actual Horde players on the site are disagreeing with you, that should tell you something, because 85% of the people here are Horde.

To the topic at hand: Just let it die already. There is no resolution to this, there will never be one, so let it fade away or lock the damn thing before it turns into a massive flame fest.

I guess it didn't occur to you that I could have been on other WoW fansites besides this, did it? I have by the way. Most people on other sites except facts presented to them and don't harass and target people who disagree with them. And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me. So far everyone I've encountered on this site has an extreme Alliance bias, and you are no exception.

I am keeping this thread open in hopes people who can actually have a discussion and be civil about it show up. I have not given up on this site yet.

Bolded the important part. There is an unbiased, completely canon remark from the top Horde warleader stating that Camp Taurajo was a military target.

Dodge that. I dare you.

I dodge nothing. I take apart what is easily proven false. The author of Tides of War has a clear Alliance bias, and therefore that line cannot be accepted as canon.

Name them. Give me evidence of the military presence in Southshore. Give me names, ranks, operations, all backed up by the lore. Do it, and I'll believe you. Continually claiming that it's "right in front of my eyes" doesn't help when you refuse to illuminate your point.

Marshal Redpath was one of them. I have continuously illuminated my point as you say, you just keep ignoring it.

The moderator has made their point fellas. I have nothing against you guys personally so kindly lay off the insults, alright? I value civility.

Post by 355559

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by morginar

And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me

Hi.

Post by oneforthemoney

Post by Adamsm

And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me. Rankkor, Skreeran, Atik, hell, even myself; I have a large number of Horde Alts I play.

Post by morginar

And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me. Rankkor, Skreeran, Atik, hell, even myself; I have a large number of Horde Alts I play.

*cought*

Post by Adamsm

You already mentioned yourself Morginar, don't really need to put it again.

Post by morginar

Yea... But if it felt like you forgot me somehow.

Post by 4dehorde

Bolded the important part. There is an unbiased, completely canon remark from the top Horde warleader stating that Camp Taurajo was a military target.

Dodge that. I dare you.

I dodge nothing. I take apart what is easily proven false. The author of Tides of War has a clear Alliance bias, and therefore that line cannot be accepted as canon.

With this, gentlemen, I think we can agree that this will never get anywhere. Please everyone, kindly cease replying to this thread, for this is the most civil it will ever be and therefore the best time it can ever end.

If you want to give up you can. I have presented facts and proven them. I have explained why Lordaeron is rightfully Forsaken territory, the right of the Forsaken to repel the Alliance invasions of their lands and how it is illogical to compare a strategic assault like Southshore to a bloody massacre like Taurajo. Don't get upset that you can't prove me wrong.

And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me. Rankkor, Skreeran, Atik, hell, even myself; I have a large number of Horde Alts I play.

Excuse me, but I don't believe you. The sheer fact that you guys have constantly tried to whitewash one of the worst massacres in Warcraft history clearly shows you are not Horde fans of any sort, and you will certainly not be able to convince me otherwise.

Post by Adamsm

Excuse me, but I don't believe you. The sheer fact that you guys have constantly tried to whitewash one of the worst massacres in Warcraft history clearly shows you are not Horde fans of any sort, and you will certainly not be able to convince me otherwise.

I gave up trying to convince you of anything a long time ago; nothing anyone says is ever going to change your mind about anything. The simple fact is, you don't have discussions: You make a post, and if someone disagrees with you, you throw a hissy fit and drag up the same tired old argument.

So, as I've said several times: Just let this thread die, because there isn't going to be anything new that hasn't been said a thousand times before.

Just remember though: For all that you say we white wash the Camp, you do the same for Southshore.

Edit: And by that I mean, at least the people in the Camp died quickly...not like those poor bastards in Southshore who were melted from the inside out, turned into oozes, or captured by a crazed Forsaken and planted like flowers.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##I gave up trying to convince you of anything a long time ago; nothing anyone says is ever going to change your mind about anything. The simple fact is, you don't have discussions: You make a post, and if someone disagrees with you, you throw a hissy fit and drag up the same tired old argument.Stop making this about the user.
Discuss the topic if you like. Leave the topic if you like. But stop making it personal and then making reports about others using personal attacks when they are not.

Post by Skreeran

And sorry but I have yet to see a single Horde fan on this site disagree with me. Rankkor, Skreeran, Atik, hell, even myself; I have a large number of Horde Alts I play.

Excuse me, but I don't believe you. The sheer fact that you guys have constantly tried to whitewash one of the worst massacres in Warcraft history clearly shows you are not Horde fans of any sort, and you will certainly not be able to convince me otherwise.This is my main.
This is a fan-fic I wrote about the Garrosh and Dranosh Saurfang.
And this is a fan-fic I wrote about my Orc Shaman.
And this is a fan-fic I wrote about my Orc Warlock.
And here's a tourist guide I wrote about the Shatterspear Trolls in Darkshore.
And here's an essay I wrote about Garrosh.
And here's an essay I wrote proving the Blight wasn't tested on children.
And here's an essay I wrote about why the Forsaken invading Gilneas makes sense from a strategist perspective.

Post by Behelich

Oh please, we don't need to be saved. We are not worth anyone's time. Let us wallow in our love for the Alliance.

Oh look, someone canon said something good about the mighty blue faction! I think I'm gonna go and smear it all over myself, right here.

Yeaaaah pro-Alliance canon, come to papa. You know what daddy likes, don't you, you dirty piece of text? Ooooooh, so nasty!

On-topic: gentlemen (and when you get back, Hyper, you too), what we have in the OP is a closet Alliance fan. I mean, you cannot help but be impressed by the effort they are putting into making Horde fans look the way they present, thus ultimately working for the glory of the Alliance. This issue should be addressed.

Post by asakawa

Excuse me, but I don't believe you. The sheer fact that you guys have constantly tried to whitewash one of the worst massacres in Warcraft history clearly shows you are not Horde fans of any sort, and you will certainly not be able to convince me otherwise.

This is a classic "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy. You may believe it to be the case but it is not something you should use to ignore someone's points instead of addressing them. You should respect the users and their opinions more than that.

Post by Rankkor

The author of Tides of War has a clear Alliance bias, and therefore that line cannot be accepted as canon.

Before anything, I'd like to remind you that I am one of the most hardcore horde fans in this website, and well over 3 dozen people can confirm that. So hardcore, that after jaina commited the warcrime of the purge of dalaran, I took my blue haired and blue armored Death Knight which is my main, and Dyed her hair and armor in red. As a personal vow that I wouldn't dye them back blue until I took revenge on Jaina and Vereesa for what they did.

And while Jaina was protected by blizzard's phasing powers (she's nowhere to be found where I can actually attack her) Vereesa wasn't, and I am not made of empty words, even if its just a game, I took my revenge on that monster, and not happy enough with that, I added insult to injury.

So having cleared up my dedication to the horde, which NOBODY can refute, disprove, or downplay in any way, I tell you, that what you've said up there is wrong.

The Author of Tides of War is none other than Christie Golden, one of the best Pro-Horde authors ever hired by blizzard. She is the one who wrote Rise of the Horde, which managed to make none other than NER'ZUL a sympathetic figure. Lemme repeat that. She make NER'ZUL, the orc who would become the Lich King, A SYMPATHETIC FIGURE. And not happy enough about that, she made Doomhammer a frikking hero. And a badass one at that. And that's not even touching how awesome she made Durotan, Thrall's father.

She also wrote Lord of the Clans, a book that exposed the hypocrisy, cruelty, and viciousness of the alliance in ways no other author has ever done so before. And is pretty much a love letter to everyone who is a horde fan.

She also wrote The Shattering, a book that is equal parts alliance love as it is Horde love.

She also wrote Twilight of the Aspects, which pretty much puts Thrall in messianic status.

So you saying that she has a "clear" alliance bias is really not true. Unlike Richard A Kaak who is REALLY alliance biased, Golden is the most balanced writer that has been hired by blizzard, she never favors one side, and she does a fantastic job at getting inside the heads of the characters she's writing about. A scene about varian? She describes the horde as a horrible war machine of monsters. A scene about Thrall? she describes the horde as a ragtag band of outcasts who are surviving together a world that would see them dead.

And despite her balance, she still leans more towards the horde than the alliance, if her number of written books are anything to go by. (Pro-horde: Rise of the Horde, Lord of the Clans, Twilight of the Aspects, and Co-Wrote Beyond the Dark Portal. If this for some reason isn't enough for you, she also wrote the Volume 4 of the Warcraft Manga: "A Warrior Made" which is the story of Draka, Thrall's mom, as well as her tribe. Pro-Alliance stuff written by her? Arthas: Rise of the Lich king, which really isn't very "pro" alliance, as it shows the downfall of the alliance to the scourge, Tides of War, which is really a punch in the gut for both sides, and The Shattering, which is equal doses of love for both sides)

So yeah, excuse my language but "Clear Alliance Bias" my ass.

Now, I haven't been keeping up to speed on everything discussed here, I haven't really visited this thread since page 7 (or was it 5?) so I dont have much of a clue of all that has been discussed, but out of curiosity I took a peek, saw you dissing Golden, and I had to say something, not only because she's my favorite authoress from warcraft, but also because even I don't agree with most of what you've said. Mind you, I agree with SOME of what you've said, but not all of it. And I truly am one of the biggest horde fans in this here website.

Post by Adamsm

Post by morginar

But Sylvanas must be Alliance Bias, i mean she only animate dead alliance into undeads.

Post by Rankkor

Calling Golden Alliance Bias would be the same as calling Sylvanas as such; a sign of not knowing a single thing about the Warcraft universe.

I myself dislike Golden's writing lately, but she has done more for the Orcs then pretty much anyone but Metzen. Also, Tides of War was set up by Blizzard themselves, so if Baine said something, that came from the big wigs, not the author.

I must admit I find it odd you say that, because not that long ago, you blamed her exclusively for ruining Kalec by pairing him with Jaina. Even though that abominable idea didn't came from her, that was also from blizzard and she was just supposed to word it (and it would suck no matter who wrote it, there's just no way to put that ship together without it looking like crap)

The Future of Lordaeron

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