So...Skyrim

Post by ElhonnaDS

Hmm- things to consider. BTw, if you kill that chick does it prevent you from making peace between the Empire and the Stormcloaks?

Post by Rankkor

Hmm- things to consider. BTw, if you kill that chick does it prevent you from making peace between the Empire and the Stormcloaks?

there can't be peace between the imperials and the stormcloaks. It just can't be done.

The closest you can get is make them agree to a temporal truce when you are near the end of the main campaign. Without spoiling anything, by the end of the main campaign you need to do something important on Whiterun, and the Jarl of Whiterun (who is neutral to both imperials and stormcloaks) will refuse to let you do this important thing while there is a civil war out there (it would leave his city weakened).

As such, you get to broker a truce treaty for both parties, forcing the imperials to make some concessions to the stormcloaks, and the stormcloaks to make some concessions to the imperials (you gotta give both sides something juicy, otherwise the one who gets less will get upset and just walk out of the truce meeting, failing the quest).

The only way to progress through the second-to-last quest on the main campaing is to either successfully pull off the truce between the 2 factions, or finish the civil war for either side.

(WARNING: if you "officially" join a side, you cannot broker a truce because you are no longer considered a neutral party. Only the Dovahkiin can negotiate, but only if s/he doesn't already belongs to the empire or the rebels. If you've already joined a side, you can't make the truce, and will be forced to complete the civil war before progressing)

How long the truce lasts? till you complete the last 3 quests of the main campaign (Which no longer take place in the mortal world, that's the point of no return, once you do the "Important thing" on whiterun, there is no turning back, you must complete the last 3 in order to return to skyrim)

but true peace is impossible. The war will go on until one side conquers the other. In fact, that wedding between Vitoria and the stormcloak noble won't trigger if you don't join the brotherhood.

Though in an odd twist of fate, if you complete the civil war, BEFORE joining the brotherhood, and you completely squash one of the 2 factions, the wedding still happens but for different reasons.

If you completed the civil war in favor of the empire, then Vittoria is marrying the "last" stormcloak noble left, in order to rout the last remnants of the rebellion. If you completed the civil war in favor of the stormcloaks, Vittoria is marrying the stormcloak noble in order to facilitate the assimilation of skyrim into imperial law again

but true peace between both sides is flat-out impossible. Because the Empire is the puppets of the Thalmor, who are a bunch of racist fascist elves who wanna purge the world of everyone who is not one of them.

Post by Rankkor

Also regarding nazir, I really like some of his quotes :P

Congratulations. You slaughtered an emaciated beggar in cold blood. (laced with sarcasm)You are truly an opponent to be feared.

Of course the miner is dead, I've heard their industry is rather... cut throat! And those hours? Murder. I can keep this up all day.

Post by EdantheDwarf

I heard someone is making a tower defense game in skyrim.

Post by ElhonnaDS

I think I heard something about a co-op mod in the works, but from what I remember reading it's just single player with a chat window ATM.

Post by 699100

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Thror

Post by ElhonnaDS

Thanks Thror- totally going to decimate them instead.

Post by Rankkor

Dark Brotherhood spoilers.
I am just going through the Dark Brotherhood questline, and I can not believe all the bollocks you said about it on the previous page, Rankkorr. Is that your memory being dull, or is your evil detector malfunctioning? The Dark Brotherhood are a bunch of cold blooded killers. Whatever "bad guy" you slay doesn't matter, because the only motivation of the brotherhood is profit. There are quests that send you to kill relatively innocent people and are avoidable, and there are quests that send you to kill innocent people and are NOT avoidable. A son of a guy? A cook? And do you really think that a political marriage is good justification for killing a woman during her wedding? Oh and this awesome Robin Hood Astrid, as you paint her, laughs about how the bride was "bleeding like a pig" and pays you extra for killing her in the middle of her speech. Such an overload of positiveness.

excuse me? o_O

Yo' I never EVER said that the dark brotherhood were in any way "good"; I said they toned down a bit from Oblivion, since on Oblivion they were a really freaky death cult that killed victims for both profit AND to worship the aspect of death (Sithis) as well as their enigmatic "night-mother"

On skyrim, they pretty much got rid of the quasi-religious part, and are pretty much hitmen who kill people for money. I did said that pretty much all of your victims are corrupt or otherwise evil people who had it coming anyways.

I NEVER painted Astrid as a "robin hood" read my post more clearly. I said that the thieves guild on Oblivion were a "Robin-Hood-esque" organization since they stole from the rich and gave to the poor, but on Skyrim they were more like a mafia organization. Astrid is just the leader of a group of paid hitmen, nothing noble about her, since the dark brotherhood takes contracts regardless of the victim's morality.

I also strongly disagree with the part you said "there are quests that send you to kill innocent people and are NOT avoidable" because that's not true. ALL the victims on the MAIN campaign are rotten, except the cook. Even the "son of a guy" who is actually not a child, is an adult, and is BTW the captain of the Emperor's bodyguards whom you gotta dispatch to off the emperor.

Considering that both him and his dad are extremely rotten, pardon me if I don't shed any tears for either of them.

The woman from the political marriage is also a cold-blooded harpy, is it wrong to off her on the wedding day? maybe, but leaving her alive (Which is what happens if you destroy the brotherhood) is much worst.

I'm telling you elhonna, you're letting A LOT of rotten EVIL people live if you take down the brotherhood. Including a serial rapist, a warlord Dictator, a cheating scum who married a girl just to rob her blind, an old hag who beats children for fun, and a really long list of Grade A pricks.

Does it bother you to work with a bunch of hitmen? well:

That part doesn't have to weight heavy on your consience because at the end of the brotherhood quest, 90% of the brotherhood is destroyed anyways, and its up to YOU to lead the brotherhood down a new path, pretty much all the killers, and "evil" men on the brotherhood die anyways, except you also get to dispatch SEVERAL other bad guys during their quest. Not to mention that you gain Shadowmere, THE most valuable friend you could have in skyrim, that horse is something else entirely when she can TAKE DOWN DRAGONS

jeez thor, learn to read my comments better. I never insinuated that the brotherhood were suddenly puking rainbows, I said that their victims are scum that deserve to die in the first place. (well 95% of them anyways. pretty much the ONLY innocent you are forced to kill in the MANDATORIAL quests is the cook, and its for a good cause anyways, since its to get closer to the emperor)

So yeah Elhonna, I really recommend you to not destroy the brotherhood, compare both results:

Scenario A: you destroy the brotherhood: You miss a TON of great quests, and fantastic dialog, you let A LONG LONG LONG list of horrible people live, and the brotherhood is not finished anyways because neither Cicero, nor Babbette will be there when you torch the place. End result: brotherhood is temorarily crippled, and a bunch of scumbags get away with their crimes. Enjoy.

Scenario B: You join the brotherhood: You dispatch justice to A TON OF PEOPLE who commited horrible crimes, (Such as the serial rapist) AND get the added bonus that at the end the brotherhood is destroyed anyways, and only you and babbette survive, with you being the leader of the new brotherhood and having to rebuild it from scratch. So, you kill ALL the evil scum that are the targets of the brotherhood, and the evil scum that are part of the brotherhood die anyways. Seems like a win-win in my book

Post by Liquoid

Holy *!@# I haven't been able to touch Skyrim for over a month (on holidays back in Boratstan).

Post by ElhonnaDS

Post by Rankkor

Sorry Rank- I won't be able to do it. I am skipping the thieves guild, and the shrine of Bohethia too. I'd rather play the character the way that I want to play her, than run around trying to be a hero 85% of the time, and then being a heartless thug the other 15% just to be a completionist.

just tellin' you, you are letting A LOT of scumbags get away with their crimes by not doing the dark brotherhood quests.

And really, if the fact that they are hitmen bothers you so much, they all DIE anyways during the course of their quest due to a traitor, the entire brotherhood ends up dead either way. The difference is that if you destroy them, Babbette and the completely crazy and psycho Cicero are the ones who rebuild it, and all the jerks you would assassinate get away with their crimes. If you join them, the brotherhood is still destroyed, except its YOU and babbette who are tasked to rebuild it.

I figure, if the brotherhood is doomed either way, you may as well do something about all the jerks running rampart across skyrim while you're at it. Specially since contrary to what thor said, (excluding the cook) the main campaign NEVER forces you to actually kill an innocent.

Post by ElhonnaDS

Post by Rankkor

Lets put it this way, Rank. I know you hate crooked cops.

Lets say I had a choice in a game to either play a set of quests in a department of crooked cops, or get them all busted right in the beginning and "do the right thing." Would you still be justifying it by saying "Well, 90% of the people you're killing are actually criminals, and you don't get to kill them if you turn in the cops. Yeah, you're doing hits for a drug cartel and not to keep the peace, and yeah you kill some people who aren't criminals, but clearly the better option is to be a crooked cop than to have no cops at all, right?"

I would if the options are A: get the dirty cops busted at the beginning and do the right thing, or B: Kill several criminals who otherwise get away scot-free AND THEN have all the dirty cops busted anyways.

Because that's the outcome for the brotherhood anyways. Its destroyed regardless of what you do. The difference is: If you destroy them without joining them, a crazy (HEAVY emphasis on the CRAZY part) jester named Cicero rebuilds them (Without you being able to do anything about that) but if you join them, you take out a lot of bad people, AND the brotherhood is still destroyed, with you overseeing its reconstruction (or not, you can just leave them to rot, since you can kill Cicero, and simply ignore the quests of nazir and the night mother)

I hate it when criminals get away with their crap, and that's exactly what happens if you destroy the brotherhood. I'd rather join them, take out the bad guys, and in the end the brotherhood is destroyed anyways.

Cause killing an innocent chef, or a guard who doesn't know any better, or random people who are inconvenient to other people but haven't done anything wrong, per se, is not a storyline I will enjoy.

To each their own I guess, but on the "killing a guard who doesn't know any better" you are basically doing that when you join the stormcloaks or the imperials anyways. Before you get to finish the war, you will have to kill A LOT of guards who's only crime was being on the side opposite to yours.

And again for the record, all the main hits on the brotherhood aren't just "people who are inconvenient to other people". Pretty much all of them are rotten bastards with some truly sick SICK minds (not that the brotherhood is better, they DID used to be a religious death-worshiping cult)

I just see it as a win-win, if you're taking out the brotherhood you may as well get more things done along the way (since it gets destroyed even if you join them).

Plus what's better? you overseeing their reconstruction (or eventual abandonment and leaving them to rot) or letting a really demented psycho do it?

Post by ElhonnaDS

Post by Rankkor

From the point of view of a character, who knows none of that in advance, it's "join assassins who kidnapped me, and want me to kill blindly" or "killing assassins who kidnapped me and want me to kill blindly" I would go with the latter. At that moment, with that information, the choice would be the second.

Fair enough. This is a more justifiable reason to not join them, since you're following a set story, but from a gameplay perspective, the brotherhood is destroyed no matter what you do.

I am role-playing a character you see.

so am I, (less so on Elder Scrolls games due to their "wide-open sandbox" nature) and in fact I didn't really joined the brotherhood on my first playthrough on Oblivion (where they were UNDENIABLY EVIL with a CAPITAL E). I even killed Lucius when he tried to recruit me. (heck, to trigger them recruiting you on oblivion you have to kill an inoccent in cold blood, I accidentally had this happen because a stupid imperial leggionaire got in the way when I fired an arrow. Since I didn't had any bounty added, I shrugged it off, and forgot about it)

But here, they remind me more of the assassin brotherhood of "Assassin's Creed" (Of course, the Assassins on AC are A LOT more noble than the assassins of the dark brotherhood, but the spirit is there in essence due to the new nature of their victims)

And the main reason I decided to join was because after the kidnapping, they let me kill one 1 out of 3 people, and one of them happened to be a serial rapist. I decided to check them out, and after learning that the final target is none other than THE EMPEROR I just couldn't pass it up (yes the emperor is the last target you kill but you spend pretty much the entire dark brotherhood campaign planning his assassination, you get the info after the third quest for them)

So, after spending over 60% of the game, having more and more reasons to hate the empire (specially after learning how the new emperor dynasty came to power) I just couldn't pass up the chance to off him. I just wrote off the VERY FEW innocent casualties as collateral damage for the greater good.

I had to do the same on ME3 and on several other games. I really hate it when crooked politicians and criminal scum get away, and torching the brotherhood is letting a lot of bad guys do presicely that. Get away with their crimes unpunished.

Post by Thror

jeez thor, learn to read my comments better. I never insinuated that the brotherhood were suddenly puking rainbows, I said that their victims are scum that deserve to die in the first place. (well 95% of them anyways. pretty much the ONLY innocent you are forced to kill in the MANDATORIAL quests is the cook, and its for a good cause anyways, since its to get closer to the emperor)
I read your posts well enough. You tend to EXAGGERATE things that help you support the claim that you want others to believe. With much caps lock added. Let me name it out to you, point by point. (again, Dark Brotherhood spoilers)

I do not think that ends always justify the means.
I refuse to say that a bunch of people who take pleasure in inflicting pain and killing are in any way good.
No, fake infantile cuteness doesn't convince me either.
I do not think Vittoria Vicci deserved to be killed, even though I know she was probably wedding for profit, was probably a ruthless businesswoman in the EEC, and was probably cheating on her soon-to-be husband.
I do not think someone deserved to die just because he worked as a bodyguard to the emperor.
I can not look past the death of two completely innocent cooks.
I do not think the Emperor is such a terrible person. I disagree with all the reasons for why you demonize him.
I do not think your arguments about "what happens when you do not do the Dark Brotherhood quests" are valid. In Skyrim, nothing happens without the players interaction, and the only events that matter are the ones the player actually experiences.

Those are the reasons for why I disagree with you, and why I think you were misinforming Elhonna rather strongly. I can not even believe I have to argument like this. She said she wants to play a good altruistic hero and wants to avoid the Dark Brotherhood and you jump in and start convincing her to do the Dark Brotherhood quests. The very concept of that seems ridiculous to me. I realize that Dark Brotherhood is probably your favorite questline, but what the hell? You would actually force her into a questline where she, with a character that was meant to be positive, would hear such words as "oh yeah, I heard that she was bleeding like a pig"?

Post by ElhonnaDS

D'awww- Thror is being all protective of my Skyrim character's innocence. Your character could be her older brother. You could fight dragons together, and have vaguely threatening big-brother conversations with her husband- lol.

Post by Thror

My character is female. :3 And dunno if your heroine would let mine anywhere near her husband. She shoots bunnies just for Archery skillups (and fun).

Post by ElhonnaDS

My character is female. :3 And dunno if your heroine would let mine anywhere near her husband. She shoots bunnies just for Archery skillups (and fun).

She married Vilkas- I feel like he can handle himself.

So...Skyrim

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