Questions for a Catholic

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Edit: After a little reading, the Catholic church only lets the pope appoint bishops... HOW many years did you go to catholic school?

13 years...I think. Things get a little fuzzy pre-3rd-grade.

The real question you should have asked is how many bishops have I seen be ordained. The answer is 3. And not a single one was by the pope. I don't know what you're reading.

The Pope does "confirm" an ordained bishop, but no, he doesn't have to ordain them.

EDIT: Just looked it up in the catechism, it uses the word "intervention." And that is required for a lawful ordination. In other words the ordination takes place no matter what, but whether the Church recognizes it as licit or not is up to the Pope.

The character and collegial nature of the episcopal order are evidenced among other ways by the Church's ancient practice which calls for several bishops to participate in the consecration of a new bishop. In our day, the lawful ordination of a bishop requires a special intervention of the Bishop of Rome, because he is the supreme visible bond of the communion of the particular Churches in the one Church and the guarantor of their freedom.

Post by MyTie

Post by Hyperspacerebel

I thought bishops were chosen 'from among you' according to certain qualifications. This is just going from memory
From among =/= by. The Church is not a democracy, it's a hierarchy (ooh, scary old-fangled word).

So, if the order was to 'chose from among you', and the order is given to bishops, then only bishops can be ordained bishops. If the order is given to the church, then it is for the church to decide.

That bolded part makes no sense...within a hundred years of the first bishops, they'd all be dead.

Now just to be clear, from you reference earlier (from among you) I assume you're talking about Acts 6:3, which is actually the ordination of the first deacons.

The Bishop passage is Acts 1:15 and following. Notice, only the 11 Apostles (Bishops) choose.

Post by MyTie

Post by Hyperspacerebel

so the catholic church votes in deacons?

Nope, people come forward of their own will (which actually captures the meaning of ἐπισκέψασθε <seek out> much better than elect does).
So what happens is say Bob wants to be a deacon, first he gets some people to confirm him in his decision, then they all go the the diocese and Bob says he wants to be a deacon and I have all these people to vouch for me. Then he studies for a certain amount of time. Then the Bishop ordains (καθιστώ - to make) him a minister.

Post by MyTie

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Does he have to be married?

There are two types of deacons: transient (on their way to becoming a priest) and permanent. Permanent deacons may or may not be married, it has not bearing. Transient deacons however are require to be celibate.

Post by MyTie

Post by Hyperspacerebel

What about bishops? Do they have to be married?

All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven." Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord," they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.

In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities. Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.

TL;DR -- They're required to be celibate.

Post by 211590

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Are you literally blind as well as being religiously blind?

Not quite, I've still got 20/180 in my right eye and 20/190 in my left (iirc 20/200 is legally blind).

Post by TheMediator

Are you literally blind as well as being religiously blind?

Love it.

Post by 74218

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Is there a specific stance towards evolution that the Catholic Church has?

Towards evolution itself? No. However, it is doctrine that God created the universe and that he directly created Man, so if a Catholic were to believe in evolution he'd have to allow for God to have started everything in the beginning and to have stepped in at least once to infuse a soul into a body and created Man.

Post by MyTie

So... 1 Timothy 3 says that bishops have to be the husband of one wife, same with deacons.

Post by Hyperspacerebel

ἐπίσκοπονς pre-Christianity meant overseer. You'll notice that never once is the term used to describe the Apostles themselves, so it isn't being used in the modern sense of Bishop. Obviously, they were people left in charge of the cities and towns they visited.

As Lenski puts it:

Paul is not telling Timothy to arrange for these offices and to define their functions and their scope; such offices were already established and in use. Timothy is merely to see to it that only properly qualified persons fill them.

Now from the text there are 4 possible interpretations:

The presbyter is not to be a Christianized Jew who, under Moses' law, had taken more than one wife.
He is not to take a second wife after the death of the first.
He is not to marry again while his divorced wife lives.
He is to be a man faithful to his wife.

Not that he has to have a wife.

Post by MyTie

ἐπίσκοπονς pre-Christianity meant overseer. You'll notice that never once is the term used to describe the Apostles themselves, so it isn't being used in the modern sense of Bishop. Obviously, they were people left in charge of the cities and towns they visited.True, but opps, bishop also means 'overseer'.As Lenski puts it:

Paul is not telling Timothy to arrange for these offices and to define their functions and their scope; such offices were already established and in use. Timothy is merely to see to it that only properly qualified persons fill them.

Now from the text there are 4 possible interpretations:

The presbyter is not to be a Christianized Jew who, under Moses' law, had taken more than one wife.
He is not to take a second wife after the death of the first.
He is not to marry again while his divorced wife lives.
He is to be a man faithful to his wife.

Not that he has to have a wife.Then explain why the dude also has to have children who are God fearing? Could it be that a leader of the church has to have certain experiences? Could it be that God wants the leaders to not only have that experience, but prooven they are effective at raising thier own children?

Post by Hyperspacerebel

Yes, but in the pre-Christian / early Christian era, overseer did not have sacerdotal connotations. Those came later.

and

I doesn't say that he has to have children; it sets requirements for if he has children.

Post by MyTie

Yes, but in the pre-Christian / early Christian era, overseer did not have sacerdotal connotations. Those came later.I see... after Christ completed his work, the catholic church finished it for him. Very nice. I knew his teachings and the people he told to teach weren't enough.
and

I doesn't say that he has to have children; it sets requirements for if he has children.

actually, it says He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respectAnd here is the Bible after the catholics fixed it:He must manage his own ~~family~~ stuff well and see that his children (optional) obey him with proper respect, unless he doesn't have any, and that's cool too.Of course, that all came later, it's the stuff we couple with the Bible, for when the word of God isn't clear enough. Sometimes, God fails, so we step in and pick up the mess he makes. Silly God. He should listen to the pope too, I suppose.

Post by MyTie

What is amazing is THIS. It literally explains that taking care of a family is necessary to taking care of the church. I suppose the catholic tradition is to skip that verse. That tradition was probably picked up a few hundred years after Jesus died, when the pope was king of God.

It's like... so very clear. I don't get how you can NOT understand it.

It would be like this:

Me: I want you to have a glass of orange juice with breakfast, because it is healthy.
Daughter pours herself a glass of Pepsi.
Me: I thought I told you to drink orange juice. It's for your health.
Daughter: I did. Right after you said orange juice, I replaced it with a traditional Pepsi, which is what I drink for breakfast from now on.
Me: But your being disobedient.
Daughter: Did you tell me to drink orange juice?
Me: Yes.
Daughter: Well, I'm doing what you said, because the verb in the sentence is 'drink', which I am doing, so I'm following your directions.
Me: That's pretty clever, but your still not following my directions. I told you to drink orange juice specifically.
Daughter: But you meant Pepsi.
Me: No, I meant orange juice.
Daughter: You are just out of touch with the times.
Me: No, orange juice is as healthy as it ever was, and if you continue to drink pepsi, you are going to become unhealthy.
Daughter: No I'm not! My friend appointed my other friend as 'health inspector' under you, and she told me I have to drink Pepsi.
Me: You can't appoint people to tell you what to do instead of me.
Daughter: I didn't, my friend did.
Me: It doesn't matter. Even if you friend did have the 'say' in this house, she would still be wrong for telling you to drink pepsi.
Daughter: Well, I'm going to split the house into two areas, one for your law, and one for my tradition. I'll drink half a glass of orange juice in one area, and a half a glass of Pepsi in the other half.
Me: Can't you just do what I tell you?
Daughter: Your directions are very incomplete. They don't tell me what I should drink in the other half of the house.
Me: There is only one house.
Daughter: There used to be, but remember, I divided it.
Me: You can't divide my house.
Daughter: I just did.
Me: The fact remains that the house is still just one house.
Daughter: I'm going to drink Pepsi.
Me: Drink orange juice.
Daughter: I can't actually hear you.
Me: Drink orange juice.
Daughter: What if I already have?
Me: When?
Daughter: I can't remember, but I'm sure I've had orange juice before.
Me: Do you really think that is going to work? Why don't you just drink your orange juice before you're late for school?
Daughter: OK!
Daughter pours another glass of Pepsi.
Me: What are you doing?
Daughter: Well, as long as I'm not ever late for school, I don't need to drink orange juice.
Me: What?
Daughter: You said "Why don't you just drink your orange juice before you're late for school". So, as long as I'm not late, I'm being obedient.
Me: You can do whatever you want, but you will suffer the consequences.
Daughter: Not if I tell my friend I drank Pepsi.
Me: What?
Daughter: Yeah, as long as I tell my friend I drank Pepsi, everything will be ok in the end.
Me: I don't get it.
Daughter: We have this thing where we confess to eachother-
Me Interrupting: Listen, Pepsi is bad for you and will make you unhealthy. Don't drink it.
Daughter continues drinking Pepsi.
Daughter: Guess I'll have to tell my friend about that one.
Me: You completely miss the point.
Daughter: No I got it, I just added to it to make it more complete. The world is better for it.
Me: Better for not obeying?
Daughter: I am obeying, I'm just obeying MORE stuff.

Questions for a Catholic

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