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PVP Power stat is misleading/confusing
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Post by
Dilbo
I have been experimenting with my toons because it was not apparent how pvp power affects actual damage in pvp.
After some testing the way I've come to think of PvP Power is as "resilience penetration". It's misleading because if you have 20% pvp power it does not mean that you do 20% more damage to players by virtue of your attacks damage being boosted by a percentage; it's more like your attacks are 20% less hindered by resilience.
For example, if your attack does 10,000 dmg baseline on a player with 50% resil (40% base reduction plus 10% from resil stats) and you have 20% pvp power, the net reduction would be 30% and you'd hit for 7,000 dmg. If PvP power boosted your attack by 20% and then applied the 50% resilience, the same 10,000 dmg attack would hit for 6,000 and that is definitely not what's happening.
This is an important distinction because it means that you will lose DPS if you try to stack PvP power at the expense of your classes' primary stat.
To verify this I set up a mage with all blue pvp power gems and ended up with 28% pvp power, but my spellpower dropped by about 1000 and my overall damage was drastically cut down down.
The tooltip correctly indicates that PvP power increases damage against players and all players have a baseline 40% reduction for pvp damage, so it's never a "worthless" stat to have for pvp activity...but you need to strike the right balance between your main stats for the best results in pvp. Putting pvp power gems in blue/yellow sockets is fine - but I would stick to primary stat gems for red sockets.
Post by
cloudp
I believe the idea of PvP power wasn't to make it the end-all, be-all PvP stat, to be honest. It was to separate PvE and PvP gear.
I have no numbers to back this up, but if the choice of stats for gemming still remains, but all pieces you wear should have PvP power, than I'd call that an accomplished job on the stat's goal - not a problem.
And excuse my possible misread, butFor example, if your attack does 10,000 dmg baseline on a player with 50% resil (40% base reduction plus 10% from resil stats) and you have 20% pvp power, the net reduction would be 30% and you'd hit for 7,000 dmg. If PvP power boosted your attack by 20% and then applied the 50% resilience, the same 10,000 dmg attack would hit for 6,000 and that is definitely not what's happening.
does that not mean that, contrary to the initial assumption of a 6000 hit, you're doing 7000, which is
more
, and thus more valuable in PvP power? If you're right and the 6000 damage scenario is not what is happening, PvP power is _better_, not worse.
Post by
Azrile
With the new gem system though, it will definitely blur the line anyway. Remember now secondary stats get twice the number that primary stats gets. The choice will not be 100 INT vs 100 secondary stat, it is 100INT vs 200 secondary stat.
I think it will be very spec specific, I don´t think pvp power or resilience will always be the right answer, nor will gemming for primary stat.
People like simple rules to follow, and probably will mostly fall in line, but mathematically, it will probably more depend on your spec than any overall single rule like ´pvpp>primary stat>pvpr etc..
Post by
gnomerdon
i just like you theorycrafting guys.
do the numbers for me, and i'll make a soft generalization as what the truth is.
Post by
781960
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dilbo
does that not mean that, contrary to the initial assumption of a 6000 hit, you're doing 7000, which is
more
, and thus more valuable in PvP power? If you're right and the 6000 damage scenario is not what is happening, PvP power is _better_, not worse.
The fundamental point is that PVP power is not increasing the damage you produce, it is increasing the damage a pvp target receives by reducing their resilience by an amount equal to your pvp power %.
Let's say your attack does 10,000 damage:
Example 1 - PvP target 60% resil / You have 0% pvp power:
Calculation: 10,000 * (1 - 0.6) = 4,000
Your attack is reduced by 60% and does 4,000 damage to the pvp target.
Example 2 - PvP target 60% resil / You have 20% pvp power:
Calculation: 10,000 * (1 - (0.6 - 0.2)) = 6,000
Your attack is reduced by 40% and does 6,000 damage to the pvp target.
PvP power seems to work by reducing the target's resilience by a percentage equal to the pvp power amount.
Now let's say you gave up 1,000 spell power by gemming all blue for pvp power. Your pvp power is now 30%, but your attack now hits for 8,500 instead of 10,000.
Example 3 - PvP target 60% resil / You have 30% pvp power:
Calculation: 8,500 * (1 - (0.6 - 0.3)) = 5,950
Your attack is reduced by 30% and does 5,950 damage.
The last example is arbitrary because it depends on the coefficients of a particular attack. Attacks that scale 150-300% SP or AP will do significantly less damage while attacks that have coefficients below 1 will do about the same or only slightly less.
Case in point, PvP power is not better than your primary stat at this time...at least not in my experience.
Post by
bearmug
I believe the idea of PvP power wasn't to make it the end-all, be-all PvP stat, to be honest. It was to separate PvE and PvP gear.
Pretty much it. It was stuck in to appease the pve crowd so they'd stop crying and was just an unnecessary change but that's Mists of Pleasing the forums for you.
It was stuck in so the PvPers don't avoid gear level limit for heroics.
Post by
781960
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
857279
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
I believe the idea of PvP power wasn't to make it the end-all, be-all PvP stat, to be honest. It was to separate PvE and PvP gear.
Pretty much it. It was stuck in to appease the pve crowd so they'd stop crying and was just an unnecessary change but that's Mists of Pleasing the forums for you.
It was stuck in so the PvPers don't avoid gear level limit for heroics.
Due to the crying by pve folks. All the devs had to do was lower the item level of pvp gear or remove it all together but clearly the easiest route escapes them.
Because we don't want to carry bads with horrible gear. You sound like a butthurt PvP'er to me.
As someone who spend all of Cata healing, I can testify that one of the worst things was seeing retards join in with PvP gear. They underperform, and generally suck even MORE than unskilled players.
And itemlevel serves other purposes, which makes it impossible to outright remove it. Unless of course you'd be fine with losing enchants and such because your items didn't have the correct itemlevel.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Trust me, It's worse when you have one of those pveing idiots in a battleground, or worse, a arena.
Stupid, undergeared, incappable of realising that the trinket is the most important item.
yeah.
Post by
Azrile
Trust me, It's worse when you have one of those pveing idiots in a battleground, or worse, a arena.
Stupid, undergeared, incappable of realising that the trinket is the most important item.
yeah.
Who is the fool, the person who uses pve items in Arena, or the fool who teams up with someone who uses pve items in arena.
my guess is you are one of the people who got thrown off every pvp team for being bad, but then has to /2 to find someone to try to cap with? and then gets angry when it takes 100 games?
Complaining about the gear of people on your arena team says it all.... kinda like complaining because your wife is fat and ugly.
Post by
349355
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiggsBoson
ArenaJunkies has a great sticky on this in their general forums. OP may wanna check it out, because it's much more thorough on the subject than small amounts of testing. PvP Power doesn't interact with Resil at all, it is exactly what the tooltip says it is, a percentage increase of your damage/healing against/on players.
Also, PvP power (to my understanding) was introduced as a way to further deter PvPers from using PvE gear, especially weapons. Many wanted to not have to do PvE content completely unrelated to their PvPing to get the best PvP gear.
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