Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God

Post by MyTie

you actually believe that the majority of Muslims think that way.

the extremest Muslims do not speak for the entire religion.

I can't speak for mojo, but I don't think that was the view being expressed, and certainly wasn't when I brought it up in the first place. Just as I brought up Catholicism, I don't believe that Catholicism speaks for all Christianity, especially as I am a Christian, and despise Catholicism.

A couple days ago when I posted about Muslims, I knew Adamsm would come into this thread, and point out that not all Muslims believe the exact same thing. I'm just surprised it took so long. Even though no one said "all Muslims", we have to have the exact same knee jerk, enlightened, tolerant, cultural, defense of something not being attacked.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Dragalthor

I can't speak for mojo, but I don't think that was the view being expressed, and certainly wasn't when I brought it up in the first place. Just as I brought up Catholicism, I don't believe that Catholicism speaks for all Christianity, especially as I am a Christian, and despise Catholicism.

A couple days ago when I posted about Muslims, I knew Adamsm would come into this thread, and point out that not all Muslims believe the exact same thing. I'm just surprised it took so long. Even though no one said "all Muslims", we have to have the exact same knee jerk, enlightened, tolerant, cultural, defense of something not being attacked.

I think that the problem is that for the last few years the media has been full of stories about that section of extremists who pertain to follow the Islamic faith and thus whenever somebody mentions anything along the lines of But in the meantime, I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.
it is going to be immediately associated with that particular faith even if no-one is actually expressing that view in particular. I realise that over the last few weeks there have been a few stories in the English media about Buddhists in Burma attacking local Muslims but these stories are few and far between.

Whilst I know that you, Mytie, prefer to take a more sceptical approach to any news stories you read, the problem is that it seems a lot of people out there just automatically believe something because it is in 'the news' and don't bother to take the time to do a little background research before blindly accepting something.

Post by MyTie

Sorry MyTie, but saying: I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.Seems to express fairly well that all of a group think like that.

But there are groups of people who do that. You are inferring that the "group" is equal to "all Muslims".Whilst I know that you, Mytie, prefer to take a more sceptical approach to any news stories you read, the problem is that it seems a lot of people out there just automatically believe something because it is in 'the news' and don't bother to take the time to do a little background research before blindly accepting something.

I do, but I also realize that there IS a problem with radical Islam becoming violent. This is a greater problem than any problem caused by any other religion. I know that people like to bring up Westburo Baptist Church, or the crusades, but these are laughable examples, as someone picketing a funeral isn't even in the same galaxy as someone blowing up children, and the crusades is centuries in history. We, as humanity, have a problem with radical Islam, and I find it intolerable when people will NOT ALLOW discussion of it, because we cannot move past the point of "not all Muslims are like that". Sure, the media sensationalizes a lot of things, but media aside, this is an issue. Let's not be afraid to talk about it for fear of stepping on toes, or something.

Post by Adamsm

Then it is so wrong to say 'Radical Islam' rather then saying things about Islam, and acting like how the radicals act is the same as the regular followers?

Post by Gone

Sorry MyTie, but saying: I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.Seems to express fairly well that all of a group think like that.

I might be reading it out of context, but "the group" doesn't necessarily mean all Muslims. It could just mean violent Muslim extremists.

Post by Adamsm

Which is why it should be put into context, rather then leaving it as a blanket statement...since there are people out there who believe in that blanket.

Post by MyTie

Then it is so wrong to say 'Radical Islam' rather then saying things about Islam, and acting like how the radicals act is the same as the regular followers?

While the former is representative to the problem, the latter is also true. Islam has a problem. Often, the problem is not speaking out against the problem. I realize that "radical" Islam is the problem, but the problems and groups of "radicals" aren't as radical as you might think, as the elections in Egypt have shown us. Palestine, Syria, and Iran, are also places where the populace supports "radical" Islam. It's almost become necessary to say "minority" Islam, instead of "radical" Islam, because of how mainstream so many of these violent movements have become. This is a huge huge issue, represented by hundreds of thousands of people, and having the potential to affect everyone on Earth. This is not some small group of a couple dozen radicals. While I understand you don't want them over represented to be the entirety of Islam, you also shouldn't under represent the problem.

Post by MrMojoRisin

But in the meantime, I do not have much support for the group that expresses their faith by blowing up innocent people in their gods name.

And I don't have much support for a group that pickets dead soldiers funerals and tell them that God decreed they deserved to die.

If you don't get it; just as Westboro does not speak for all Christians, the extremist Muslims do not speak for the entire religion.

I do not support WBC either, but if you only want to focus on the most extreme of each religion, then lets explore the extremes.

WBC does some pretty nasty things, but those things are to hold and express some very narrow minded and misguided interpretations of the Bible, and to impose those nasty ideals on people at the worst possible time. They are also, as far as I know, one of the only churches that act in this manner. They receive almost zero support from any other churches, and they are downright condemned by mainstream Christianity.

Radical Islam does some pretty nasty things too. Those things include randomly bombing innocent crowds of people, flying airplanes into buildings, public beheadings, and dragging corpses through the streets, just to name a few. They are also rarely even denounced by "non-radical" Muslims. They have even managed to gain political power through "democratic" elections by way of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Quran contains 109 verses that call for Muslims (not "radical" Muslims, but "all" Muslims) to war with non-muslims. The Quran also says that any Muslim who does not fight to convert, will be dammed.

"There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick that they go not forth to war. And whoso obey Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth their back on him will He punish with a painful doom."

Islam is not a "religion of peace", but that is not to say there are no peaceful Muslims. Much the same, Christianity is not a violent religion, but that is not to say there are not violent Christians. But both are the exceptions to the rule.

So much blatant ignorance in this post, you have been brainwashed the media if you actually believe that the majority of Muslims think that way.

I do not believe that I am the one that is "ignorant" here, nor am I the one that has been influenced by the media. The media are the ones that want us to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, and that the terrorists are just a tiny little group that are "radical", when as I said earlier, the Quran has more than 100 passages that call for bring war against non-Muslims. It specifically says that Allah could do the killing himself, but he chooses not to, to test Muslims faith in him, and that those that do will be rewarded.

But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them Himself; but He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

edit: Just to be clear here, so no one has to try to decipher what I am saying, or how I feel.

I think Islam is a violent religion. One of its most core beliefs is that Muslims should actively convert, kill, and conquer all non-Muslims, and that the act of doing so is a requirement for them to reach their heaven. As I pointed out, this is akin to the Christian belief that we must believe in Christ to go to Heaven.

I think it is not that radical Islamists believe a different way, only that they act a different way. To be a "peaceful" Muslim is considered by their own religion, to be a hypocrite. Thankfully, for the time being, modern Islam has a lot more hypocrites than those that follow the call of the Quran.

Post by Adamsm

Okay for this:And whoso obey Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth their back on him will He punish with a painful doom.That sounds similar to how non-Christians do not go to a eternal afterlife, but instead burn in Hell. But that could just be me.

Of course, in the Old Testament, Christianity was just as violent, but hey, whatever.

Post by Monday

Old Testament Christianity was made for a nation which was being constantly attacked and destroyed by other nations. It needed to be harsh to keep Israel alive.

However, the New Testament has been put into place because violence is no longer needed. Love and peace are the true tenants of Christianity now.

Post by Dragalthor

Post by Gone

Of course, in the Old Testament, Christianity was just as violent, but hey, whatever.

There's no such thing as Old Testament Christianity. There is Christianity, and Judaism.

Post by Adamsm

Love and peace are the true tenants of Christianity now.

If only more people followed that ideal.....

Post by MyTie

Love and peace are the true tenants of Christianity now.

If only more people followed that ideal.....

I never thought I would see something so evangelical from you.

Post by Adamsm

Yeah well, since all of my IRL interaction with Christians has been them attacking me, I'm jaded in regards to it.

Post by Monday

But is there really such a thing as 'Old Testament' Christianity? The reason I ask is that the religion of Christianity is based on the teachings of Christ as the Son of God' which is the New Testament'.

I don't know about MyTie, but what my church believes is this:

The Old Testament was mostly assigned by God the Father (such as the Plagues of Egypt, for example). He is generally seen as the Justice side of the Justice/Mercy order. God, after all, is a perfect being and cannot look on sin with any degree of allowance. Thus, that is why Jesus sacrificed Himself for us, so that we could be forgiven through him, the great Mediator. He represents the Mercy side, and thus His teachings in the New Testament are all about mercy, love and forgiveness.

Yeah well, since all of my IRL interaction with Christians has been them attacking me, I'm jaded in regards to it.

Weren't you just saying that you shouldn't judge a group based on the minority?

Post by Adamsm

Post by Monday

And yet the media and new stories I read about Christianity seems to show my experiences aren't one off things;

Like what?

there's also things within Christianity itself that I disagree with and dislike

Care to elaborate?

Post by Gone

Yeah well, since all of my IRL interaction with Christians has been them attacking me, I'm jaded in regards to it.

Weren't you just saying that you shouldn't judge a group based on the minority?

And yet the media and new stories I read about Christianity seems to show my experiences aren't one off things; there's also things within Christianity itself that I disagree with and dislike, which I figured out before I had chosen Wicca for myself, and now, almost 15 years later, I'm not seeing anything that has changed my view point since then.

Since when does the news represent what the majority of society is up to?

If aliens were monitoring us through our news stations, they would think the average human could barely leave their home without being shot, or raped, or assaulted.

Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God

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