Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God

Post by Skreeran

As I said, it's technically possible, but I'm going by what the evidence suggests. If you believe in God and want to try and reconcile the account of Genesis with scientific facts, be my guest. Whether or not God created the universe actually 6000 years ago, the evidence suggests it's 13.7 billion years old, so that's how I orient my model. I don't believe in God, so there's no reason for me to presume that the evidence is illusory.

TL;DR Keep your metaphysics out of my physics and we can both be happy.

Post by Ksero

Post by Squishalot

That's not just a case of 'technically possible', like it's 'technically possible the world is flat' (to use your example). It's an evidence based theory, using the available scientific data and the Bible both as sources of evidence. It's not even that the scientific evidence is illusory. An artifact might be 40,000 years old right now, but be 34,000 years old when it was created.

Besides - for someone who is making a claim that 'evolution is a fact', you're putting a lot of faith in an observational theory that can't actually be replicated by scientists in anything other than a micro scale.

I don't believe in God, so there's no reason for me to presume that the evidence is illusory.

Just one more point. If you're not willing to discuss a concept, why bother even being part of the discussion? I don't believe in YEC, but that doesn't stop me from having a constructive conversation about it.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##

Post by Ksero

The bible is not a viable form of scientific evidence.

Edit: To elaborate, while it is possible that the bible is the word of God and that everything in it is truth, it is also possible that it is the word of some random dude a few thousand years ago, and he made it all up. (not trying to offend anyone, it is a possibility)

Edit 2: you don't need to look any further than drug resistant strains of bacteria to conclusively prove that evolution occurs.

Post by Squishalot

Post by Gone

I'm with Skreeran on the whole evolution thing. It's true that it's only technically a theory, but it's an extremely credible theory with a lot of evidence behind it. The only thing preventing it from being stated as a scientific fact is that it's not something we have been able to observe in nature due to how long it takes. Calling it a theory in the context that it's only a vague idea being considered is unfair.

The thing is MyTie, acceptance of evolution should in no way diminish your faith in scripture. If God created the universe then I doubt the laws of physics would restrict him. People put too much stock in the 6000 year time frame. Even without God time anomalies are possible.

If we had the technology, you could climb into a spaceship, fly out to a black hole and circle it for a few hours, then fly back to Earth and find out years have passed while to you, it was only a few hours. Even here on Earth people moving at a faster speed are moving through time at a more accelerated rate than people who are moving slower (see Einsteins theories of space/time). Gravity bends time, so does movement. In the big bang they say that a large part of the universal expansion took place in something like 1/10^30 of a second. That's massively faster than the speed of light. God could have spend six days created the universe up to the point that Earth was ready for habitation, and still had it take billions of years within the universe itself.

Post by Skreeran

Just one more point. If you're not willing to discuss a concept, why bother even being part of the discussion? I don't believe in YEC, but that doesn't stop me from having a constructive conversation about it.I really don't give a darn about religion anymore. I have my own thoughts and feelings and opinions on whether or not religions in the world are correct or not, but I've stopped trying to fight and argue and struggle. So I try not to care anymore how people think God created the world and why and what it all means. Think whatever you want. The only reason I came in here was to defend the science.

You can demonstrate / replicate that mutations occur. You can't demonstrate / replicate that a primate can mutate over years into a human. The reason why evolution is well and truly a theory is because it's based on historical observations and a lot of theoretical interpolation between 'back then' and 'now'. It's not as if, like gravity or flat-Earth, we can pick up a ball and drop it, or walk/drive/fly around the Earth in a straight line and come back to where we started.It may not be as plainly obvious as gravitation or a semi-spherical Earth, but it's no less well proven. It's not just historical observations and blind inference. There's actually a lot of experiments and observations that have been done to give it credit.

Post by Squishalot

I really don't give a darn about religion anymore. I have my own thoughts and feelings and opinions on whether or not religions in the world are correct or not, but I've stopped trying to fight and argue and struggle. So I try not to care anymore how people think God created the world and why and what it all means. Think whatever you want. The only reason I came in here was to defend the science.

I see. A bit disappointing, but you're entitled to that view if you like.

It may not be as plainly obvious as gravitation or a semi-spherical Earth, but it's no less well proven. It's not just historical observations and blind inference. There's actually a lot of experiments and observations that have been done to give it credit.

Can you provide me with evidence of experiments that demonstrate / replicate at anything other than a micro-organism scale?

Actually, let me pose a question. The current H7N9 flu virus going around China has said to evolve to avoid causing harm to the chickens that it's spread to, to make it harder to catch. It's also evolved to be twice as deadly to humans. So if the goal of a virus is to spread and multiply, and it's capable of evolving to avoid causing harm to its host, why hasn't the flu evolved to be harmless to humans full stop? You'd think then we'd stop trying to kill it, no?(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##

Post by MyTie

The thing is MyTie, acceptance of evolution should in no way diminish your faith in scripture. If God created the universe then I doubt the laws of physics would restrict him. People put too much stock in the 6000 year time frame. Even without God time anomalies are possible.

I know. My entire point is this. My entire point is that there is no "vs" between religion and science. It's a useless endeavor though, trying to explain this. I just get compared to a flat earther, or gravity denier, or something. I can't explain why there is no fight if people are here only to defend their point of view. It's equally difficult as trying to explain to a person who says that evolution IS false because of God. People are so set in defending science against religion, or religion against science, that common sense goes right out the door. Look:The only reason I came in here was to defend the science.So, when I try to explain it all, I get thousand year old made up, gravity, science, fact, etc... It's never ending. When people are so convinced there is a fight there, they will keep fighting you, no matter how much you insist that they can have their cake and eat it too. To some Christians, I am a heretic, and to some atheists, I am a zealot. Trying to get these extremes to see the middle ground only ever results in mockery and patronizing one liners.

Post by Skreeran

I thought I already elaborated my position? Science and religion don't have to be at odds. It's only when religious people contest accepted scientific truth do I even start caring.

I'm not attacking religion here. I don't think there needs to be a science vs. religion debate. Religion is perfectly capable of existing within the bouns of accepted science. I'm not here to argue metaphysics, but physics, so to speak.

Edit: Didn't see you Squish, let me answer.

Can you provide me with evidence of experiments that demonstrate / replicate at anything other than a micro-organism scale?

Actually, let me pose a question. The current H7N9 flu virus going around China has said to evolve to avoid causing harm to the chickens that it's spread to, to make it harder to catch. It's also evolved to be twice as deadly to humans. So if the goal of a virus is to spread and multiply, and it's capable of evolving to avoid causing harm to its host, why hasn't the flu evolved to be harmless to humans full stop? You'd think then we'd stop trying to kill it, no?

In regards to your first question, rather than type up a huge post, I'm going to just link you a video. That should explain some of the simple stuff. If you really want an in-depth look, I'd recommend doing some higher reading on the subject. Dawkins is my favorite source, as an evolutionary biologist by trade. If you don't like him, I might recommend molecular biologist Daniel Fairbanks or evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne instead.

I'm just going to put this simply. I used to be a Christian. I used to believe in a Young Earth Creation, and I used to reject evolution out of hand. I did not blindly accept evolution. In fact, I was not even taught the proper theory until I was 16 and entered into public school. Naturally, I was skeptical. So it was with a critical eye and a predisposition towards disbelief in it that I studied it. So my belief in evolution is not based on blind faith in "science." It's based on intense studying and constant criticism and fact-checking on the subject. The evidence was so compelling, so undeniable that it actually made me reconsider my YEC beliefs and set me on the track towards my current religious beliefs.

I see. A bit disappointing, but you're entitled to that view if you like.Please elaborate on what in particular you find disappointing.

Post by MyTie

Post by Ksero

To elaborate, while it is possible that the bible is the word of God and that everything in it is truth, it is also possible that it is the word of some random dude a few thousand years ago, and he made it all up. (not trying to offend anyone, it is a possibility)

You can make the same argument about the word of Charles Darwin.Except when you check what Darwin says, all the external evidence supports it. There is no way of proving the Bible true, other than information contained in the Bible, that's kind of the whole point of faith.

you don't need to look any further than drug resistant strains of bacteria to conclusively prove that evolution occurs.

you're putting a lot of faith in an observational theory that can't actually be replicated by scientists in anything other than a micro scale.

You can demonstrate / replicate that mutations occur. You can't demonstrate / replicate that a primate can mutate over years into a human. The reason why evolution is well and truly a theory is because it's based on historical observations and a lot of theoretical interpolation between 'back then' and 'now'. It's not as if, like gravity or flat-Earth, we can pick up a ball and drop it, or walk/drive/fly around the Earth in a straight line and come back to where we started.

actually, with genome sequencing you can prove that certain animals are related and have evolved from each other, while we may not have the entire primate side of the tree yet, we know that walrus and sea lions evolved from the caniform (dogs, bears, foxes etc.) tree, and we do have that "missing link" so it is completely possible that human may have evolved from a common ancestor of primates.

Post by Skreeran

Post by MyTie

Post by Skreeran

Your main concern is metaphysics, mine is physics. Yours exists in the realm of belief and philosophy, mine is based on things you can test and observe in detectable reality. To challenge you, I'd have to persuade you theologically or philosophically. To challenge me, you're going to have to show data and experimental evidence.

Perhaps, if we'd like to turn the page, and be respectful, you could stop comparing me to a flat earther?The comparison wasn't meant to insult. I'm not saying that you're stupid or ignorant or foolish. All I'm saying is that as far as science is concerned, there is as much evidence for evolution and a 4.5 billion year old Earth as there is that it's a globe.

As I mentioned above, this is not blind belief in the infallibility of science and scientists, but years of study on my part from the perspective of a Young Earth Creationist.

Post by Gone

Post by MyTie

As I mentioned above, this is not blind belief in the infallibility of science and scientists, but years of study on my part from the perspective of a Young Earth Creationist.

This is why we should all reject science. It's like that time that Nazi scientist spliced children together till they died. You're theories are kind of like that. It isn't meant as an insult, it's just years of me looking at the perils of science. Consider the atom bomb, or even conventional bombs for that matter. Death advanced by science.

My point is, you can't take the very worst cross section of ignorant people from a movement, and use that as your reference for the entire movement, and then feign like it isn't meant to insult.

Post by Ksero

I just get compared to a flat earther, or gravity denier, or something.
Ksero doesn't know what he's talking about. Most of the scientific breakthroughs he mentioned were contested by the scientific community of their time as well. Galileo, for example, refused to accept that the tides were caused by the moon, and Einstein went to his grave denying the now proven theories on entanglement and the idea that quantum physics is determined largely by chance.

Thanks again for trying to make me look like an idiot, 3rd time this week from you, I never claimed the scientific breakthroughs weren't contested by the scientific community, that was actually the point I was trying to make, If you don't question the accepted truth, then no progress will be made, that's why i explicitly said blind faith in religion OR science will impede progress.

Post by 109094

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Gone

Thanks again for trying to make me look like an idiot, 3rd time this week from you
Well stop saying stupid things and I won't have to. Your original line, that I took issue with, was this:
My point was, Faith (whether it be in religion or in science), will do nothing but slow progress
Faith is everything in both religion, and in the formation of new scientific ideas and theories. If it weren't for faith, then most of these new ideas would have ever gotten off the ground. You're painting faith into the staled belief in dated ideas. There is the other aspect of it. If not for faith then the theory of evolution would never have gotten off the ground to begin with.

My point is, you can't take the very worst cross section of ignorant people from a movement, and use that as your reference for the entire movement, and then feign like it isn't meant to insult.
When did he even do that? All I've seen him do here is defend the theory of evolution. Speaking of which MyTie, is there anything besides your faith that makes you skeptical of evolution? And if so, what?(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##"Well stop saying stupid things and I won't have to."
Come now, we can be more mature than this.

Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God

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