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New Warchief?
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Post by
Monday
If you really want to get the discussion back on track, sneaking in the last word isn't going to help. Just don't respond to his comments and bring it back on track. Attempting to stick in one last argument
then
bringing it back on track just makes you look like a $%^&.
HE TOOK MY JERB (of looking like a &*!@).
And that's terrible.
That's 40 times.
That's as many as four tens.
And that's terrible.
Post by
Rankkor
The treaty signed between Durotar and Theramore is binding all nations in both factions, or at least it was. It did not just exist in the RPG, it was referenced in WC3 Frozen Throne and has been mentioned in WoW as well. However, most of references of it were in vanilla, which has been all but completely wiped from the game with Cataclysm.
you may want to double-check that my friend. In order to sign a treaty, each alliance leader would had to travel to kalimdor. Neither did.
Jaina signed a peace treaty with the horde, but Varian, Magni, Gelbin, and the other alliance leaders never signed anything, nor agreed to anything.
That treaty was exclusively between Orgrimmar and Theramoore. Jaina didn't (and still doesnt) have the authority to bind unilaterally all the alliance nations to a treaty without their consent, unless each leader agrees to the binding and signs the treaty in person.
None of the alliance leaders did that. Daelin broke the treaty not due to invading durotar, but because he comandeered the Theramoore forces and forced them to invade, and that was a breaking of the treaty.
I strongly disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. Regardless of the legal issue, either way Daelin violaed the treaty and even after his defeat the Alliance did not reign his troops in.
this is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing bro' that treaty was exclusive between theramoore and orgrimmar, and neither Kul Tiras, nor Dalaran, Lordaeron, Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomeregan, or Silvermoon signed it.
if they didn't signed it, they weren't bound by it. And Jaina did not had the authority to include them there unilaterally
.Because those weren't Alliance forces? Remember, Daelin was a rogue, and his attack on Durotar was not sanctioned by Theramore...since you know....Jaina helped to keep her people back so that Rexxar and his group could kill the Grand Admiral.
And it's still just a treaty between Theramore and Durotar, not the entire Alliance and Horde forces.
and this is the other side of the coin, bro' Daelin was not a rogue, he was pretty much the frikking KING of Kul Tiras, and his forces were legalized Alliance troops. The Dishonorable thing he did was when he made Jaina's Troops attack the horde, since those troops were bound by treaty to be peaceful, if he wanted to wage is war against ogrimmar, he should had used his own men.
Had he used his own men, no treaty would had been broken, and this would had been a simple matter of 2 factions who oppose each other fighting.
The real rogues where the Kul Tiras soldiers who stayed behind even after Daelin was executed, those soldiers were duty-bound to either return home, or surrender to Theramoore for imprisonment.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
and this is the other side of the coin, bro' Daelin was not a rogue, he was pretty much the frikking KING of Kul Tiras, and his forces were legalized Alliance troops. The Dishonorable thing he did was when he made Jaina's Troops attack the horde, since those troops were bound by treaty to be peaceful, if he wanted to wage is war against ogrimmar, he should had used his own men.
Pretty sure being a king doesn't preclude you from the rogue class.
¬_¬ dude, Adamsn was referring to the "maverick" rogue, not the "rogue-rogue".
What adamsm meant to say, was that Daelin was some sort of desertor, or "former alliance", or someone who didn't represented the over-all collective alliance opinion, or he was an outlaw. Catch me drift?
While I WAS saying that Daelin was a fully fledged alliance 100%, not a rogue, or wild-card, or maverick, or deserter, or dissident, or whatever.
Its very well established (in several sources) that the Peace Treaty signed by Thrall and Jaina (and ONLY Thrall and Jaina) was exclusive between Orgrimmar, and Theramoore. The other alliance nations weren't included (each king would have had to travel to kalimdor to sign it personally to make it official, and at the time, none did)
Post by
Adamsm
Rank, even in game, the attack on Durotar is called a rogue move by Daelin; the fact that he conscripted Theramore forces added on top of that. Had it just been his own well...still would have been a bad move, but just one, but by forcing another nation into his attack, he dug his own grave there.
Post by
4dehorde
Because those weren't Alliance forces? Remember, Daelin was a rogue, and his attack on Durotar was not sanctioned by Theramore...since you know....Jaina helped to keep her people back so that Rexxar and his group could kill the Grand Admiral.
And it's still just a treaty between Theramore and Durotar, not the entire Alliance and Horde forces.
Edit: Also, not Rank's opinion, since it's the actual canon lore.
Edit 2: And if you except the Alliance forces to reign in rogue factions, then in the same vein of ideas, it's the fault of the Horde that the Blackrock Orcs are attacking the Alliance lands.
How many times must I tell you? Kul Tiras (Daelin's forces) is an Alliance kingdom. Not rogue in the slightest. He was also the grand admiral of the ENTIRE Alliance navy. The actions of the Naval leader of a nation are held accountable to that nation. To say otherwise is blatantly incorrect.
Again, its your opinion that the treaty only applies to those nations. Only Thrall and Jaina signed the treaty, making it, according to you, only liable to them. Tell me then why Vol'jin and Cairne agreed to it as well and followed it, and its okay for the other Alliance leaders not to do the same? All of the Horde honored to the treaty, why is it okay for only one Alliance kingdom to do the same and not the others?
It is his opinion because it is not the actual canon lore. I've already provided the lore that proves my points however.
I don't expect the Alliance to reign in rogue factions, I expect them to reign in their own troops (Yes, despite your claims, Daelin and his forces were Alliance). Kul Tiras is a member of the Alliance, while the Blackrock Clan is not part of the Horde. There is a big difference.
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwise.
Post by
4dehorde
Rank, even in game, the attack on Durotar is called a rogue move by Daelin; the fact that he conscripted Theramore forces added on top of that. Had it just been his own well...still would have been a bad move, but just one, but by forcing another nation into his attack, he dug his own grave there.
Coming from someone who has studied the lore for years, I can honestly say you calling Daelin's invasion rogue is the first I have ever heard of it.
Post by
Monday
Again, its your opinion that the treaty only applies to those nations. Only Thrall and Jaina signed the treaty, making it, according to you, only liable to them. Tell me then why Vol'jin and Cairne agreed to it as well and followed it, and its okay for the other Alliance leaders not to do the same? All of the Horde honored to the treaty, why is it okay for only one Alliance kingdom to do the same and not the others?
Because they are two different types of government? Thrall speaks for Vol'jin and Cairne. He's their leader.
Jaina does not speak for the Alliance. Each member of the Alliance is autonomous.
It is his opinion because it is not the actual canon lore. I've already provided the lore that proves my points however.
Oh? To quote the WoW manual: The Grand Admiral forced Jaina to make a terrible decision: support him in battle
against the orcs and betray her newfound allies, or fight her own father to
maintain the fragile peace that the Alliance and the Horde had finally attained.
After much soul-searching, Jaina chose the latter and helped Thrall defeat her
crazed father. Unfortunately Admiral Proudmoore died in battle before Jaina could
reconcile with him or prove that orcs were no longer bloodthirsty monsters. For
her loyalty, the orcs allowed Jaina’s forces to return home safely to Theramore.
Jaina, who was commander of the Kalimdor Alliance forces, fought against Proudmoore, who also was her father. This implies that he was rogue, as Jaina is still a leader of the Alliance, and Kul Tiras hasn't been seen since.
Coming from someone who has studied the lore for years, I can honestly say you calling Daelin's invasion rogue is the first I have ever heard of it.
lol'd.
Post by
Adamsm
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwiseSo your opinions are greater then the actual lore? Okay then; if you want to keep believing that your 'truth' is right, go ahead; the rest of us here on the L&RP forum, we'll follow the actual lore.
Post by
4dehorde
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwiseSo your opinions are greater then the actual lore? Okay then; if you want to keep believing that your 'truth' is right, go ahead; the rest of us here on the L&RP forum, we'll follow the actual lore.
I hate to break this to you, well not really, but your opinions are not the actual lore. You can make any claim you want, but it is not fact. The lore is written by Blizzard, not by you.
Post by
Monday
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwiseSo your opinions are greater then the actual lore? Okay then; if you want to keep believing that your 'truth' is right, go ahead; the rest of us here on the L&RP forum, we'll follow the actual lore.
I hate to break this to you, well not really, but your opinions are not the actual lore. You can make any claim you want, but it is not fact. The lore is written by Blizzard, not by you.
Hey, yeah, check my quote from the manual, then apply logic. IT WORKS!
Post by
4dehorde
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwiseSo your opinions are greater then the actual lore? Okay then; if you want to keep believing that your 'truth' is right, go ahead; the rest of us here on the L&RP forum, we'll follow the actual lore.
I hate to break this to you, well not really, but your opinions are not the actual lore. You can make any claim you want, but it is not fact. The lore is written by Blizzard, not by you.
Hey, yeah, check my quote from the manual, then apply logic. IT WORKS!
Cute. Your quote from the mannual does not imply your opinion like you think it does. Nowhere did it mention a thing about Kul Tiras or Daelin Proudmoore being rogue. All it said was that Daelin attacked the Horde and Jaina let them stop him. If anything, it implies Jaina is rogue for going against the Alliance Grand Admiral. Of course we know objectively that is not correct, but it implies that.
Post by
Adamsm
Again, you can have your opinions and I can have mine as well. You are not going to convince me otherwiseSo your opinions are greater then the actual lore? Okay then; if you want to keep believing that your 'truth' is right, go ahead; the rest of us here on the L&RP forum, we'll follow the actual lore.
I hate to break this to you, well not really, but your opinions are not the actual lore. You can make any claim you want, but it is not fact. The lore is written by Blizzard, not by you.
No kidding Sherlock; but you don't write the lore either, since you seem to ignore anything that goes against your view on it: The comments right here in this thread about Saurfang show that you have a blind spot.
Post by
Monday
Unless, of course, you use a thing called logic, wherein Jaina is still alive and extremely influential, along with being in command of all Alliance forces in Kalimdor.
Also, have you seen Kul Tiras around? 'cause I haven't. That implies that Jaina was in the right.
Have fun picking that apart with lore examples or logic, instead of dismissive: "Lol, have fun kid, the adults are debating here."
Post by
oneforthemoney
Don't feed the trolls.
Post by
4dehorde
I don't know for certain how this thread got so badly derailed, though I have an idea. Regardless I intend on putting this back on track at last. Though I will speak what I am thinking right now before doing so.
I'm beginning to remember why I took an extended break from all this. I'd forgotten most people on these forums I have encountered thus far either are or act like immature children who can't stand to see their beliefs contested. Piece of advice: If someone can't handle seeing someone disagree with them, they should not start a debate.
I intend on focusing on the Warchief topic from here on out. This Alliance VS. Horde discussion can be taken to a thread that addresses that, or even put in a new one. You all can do what you want, but I'm going back to what I started this for.
Post by
Monday
I'm beginning to remember why I took an extended break from all this. I'd forgotten most people on these forums I have encountered thus far either are or act like immature children who can't stand to see their beliefs contested. Piece of advice: If someone can't handle seeing someone disagree with them, they should not start a debate.
You should take your own advice. Ciao.
Post by
367020
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Again, its your opinion that the treaty only applies to those nations. Only Thrall and Jaina signed the treaty, making it, according to you, only liable to them. Tell me then why Vol'jin and Cairne agreed to it as well and followed it, and its okay for the other Alliance leaders not to do the same? All of the Horde honored to the treaty, why is it okay for only one Alliance kingdom to do the same and not the others?
Because the Horde and Alliance are not exactly the same in the way they are ran. Thrall, the Warchief, had the power to pledge the entire Horde's peace to the treaty,
because he was Cairne and Vol'jin's superior
. Where the Horde's power goes from the Warchief down to the faction leaders, within the Alliance there is no clear crystal cut of who's in charge, especially before Varian's return. Jaina did not have the authority to pledge peace on behalf of the other kingdoms and realms encompassed within the Alliance, because she did not have that power. She could pledge Theramore to honour the peace treaty, but not, say, Stormwind.
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