Hell

Post by Skreeran

All of those things are correlation. You do something, and you observe the situation occuring chronologically after you take that action. Can you actually *prove* that the radiation and chemotherapy kill the cells?

No. You can infer causation, but you cannot prove causation.

You can see the person praying and holding a religious symbol to her breast. You can see that the person who previously had a lung cancer tumour no longer has one. You see them do something, you observe the situation occurring chronologically after they took that action. Unless you disagree with the general facts of the case?That is a flawed example. I know why Summer is hot. We can observe that the Earth rotates on an axis that has a tilt. We can observe that the Earth is tilted closer to the Sun during the period we call "Summer." We understand that the closer the Earth is to the Sun, the less space the Sun's energy has to disperse in, and hence, the more energy the Earth receives. As the Earth receives that energy, the particles the make up everything vibrate faster as they become more energized. Our nerves send signals to our brain, communicating the fact that the particles that make them up are receiving more energy. So we feel hot.

Same thing with radiation therapy. We can understand and observe exactly how radiation works and how it affects cells. Subatomic particles break off from unstable atoms, and those subatomic particles bombard the cells, damaging them on the atomic level.

(Note: All of these explanations are based on my own individual knowledge of Science. I may be wrong, but I know that we do know how these things work.)

Point is, we're not just guessing. We didn't just shoot someone with radiation and then found out that suddenly the cancer was dead. It's all been tested, researched, and we understand all of the physical processes that cause it.

Not so with faith-healing. That's more of the blind guessing type. You can't explain to be on the cellular/atomic/subatomic level how it works.

I suppose it could seem similar to science if you were a caveman (insert offended caveman here). You flip the switch and the light comes on. That's how electricity works. It's magic! You pray and the cancer goes away. It's magic!

However, I can explain to you (or at least, someone can explain to you, if I can't) how electricity is produced, how it reaches you house, how it produces the light you see, and how your flipping the switch completes the circuit which allows the current to continuously flow from the switch to the wall.

You can't do that with faith healing. All you can give us is the "flip the switch and the light comes on" explanation. That's not good enough for me.

Do you have less faith in the cancer research of religious scientists than atheist scientists? You're probably wiping out most research conducted in developed nations. It's also irrational, because you're basing your judgement on a person, rather than the process.I wouldn't say that. However, if my doctor told me to pray that I get better rather than treating me, I'd probably find a new doctor.

Oh wait, no quantum randomness must be MAGIC!
@ Skreeran: I'm still waiting for you to respond to this.I don't understand quantum physics--certainly not as much as I understand religion--so I'm not exactly qualified to make a judgment on that. Honestly, I would leave that to the professionals, since peer-reviewed science tends to boil itself down to the truth eventually, if given enough time.

However, since you asked, I would probably wager, based on my understanding of the universe, that there is some law that we haven't discovered yet that governs the behavior of quantum particles. I don't think that it is fundamentally unexplainable. I think that we merely have not explained it yet.

However, I'm willing to trust the quantum physicists on this, should they ever agree on anything.

So I say that you need to have faith before he will show unto you that the church is true. Skree, it sounds like you never truly had faith if you could be shaken from your Church after the death.

And for the other, he questioned whether God is true. He doubted. He never asked with real intent and faith in Christ, he asked as a last ditch attempt (from what I read on the blog) and he never really did believe he was true.

Not how I read it, from what I see, he used to be pretty devout.

We'll have to wait for him.Well, I believed as hard as I could. I actively disputed evolution, I went to church every Sunday and Wednesday, I read the Bible every Saturday, I was Baptized, I prayed often...

I really did believe. But, I am a concrete learner, and a natural skeptic, and eventually, I just realized that I only believed what I did because my parents believed it.

I made the point in another thread. I don't believe that Skreeran has any right to criticise others' beliefs, without being affirmed in his own belief. If he doesn't firmly believe that there is no god, he shouldn't criticise others for believing that there is one. His belief is that it is likely that there isn't a god, that he generally doesn't think one exists. He may be standing on one side of the fence, but he's still got a fencepost stuck up his arse that he clings to as a security blanket.I believe that absolute faith in the unlikely is foolish. If God probably doesn't exist, then I think it's foolish for people to be absolutely, positively sure that he does. And I believe that religion has not only hurt people in the past, but that it also represents a stumbling block for human progress in the future. Religion blocks gay rights, atheist rights, stem cell research, cloning, etc. Religion has supported slavery, holy wars, and inquisitions. School boards are forced to spend money to fight for evolution to be taught in schools, rather than... y'know... teaching.

And all of it is based on something that probably doesn't exist. So yes, I will criticize religion and religious thinking, because I think that it helps further the cause of human freedom from evolution, even if just a little bit.

You're not Skreeran either. I don't hate people who are stupid and ignorant, I respect the fact that they're not as lucky as I am to have the education that I've had. I respect those who have a belief in religion, and I don't ridicule them either. He's clearly outlined the fact that he hates people who would ignore science and believe in faeries and magic.I don't hate religious people. I've told you that. There are religious people that I hate, like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson, but I that is because of them as individuals. I do not hate religious people just for being religious. In fact, I pity them in a way.

What I hate is religion itself. I believe that it is a cultural virus that is passed from parent to child, and mutates and adapts to its environment in order to stay alive. I hate the virus, not the victims.

Post by Orranis

Yes, but this is my point. If you're not 100% sure of your own beliefs, then you shouldn't be attacking other people and hating on them for believing in something that you don't write-off. Because God isn't incompatible with your view of the universe, there is no reason to ridicule and hate those who do believe God exists.

If that means that you should never hate or disrespect people who believe in God, then I think that's a suitable conclusion.

That, and I wasn't making any interpretation of atheism and agnosticism. I was interpreting Skreeran's beliefs as he's told it to us.

I'm 100% sure what my own beliefs are, but the difference is that my beliefs are self correcting. What right do you have to say I don't have the right to do something?

Yes, and to all you who sight statistics about religious people versus atheists, let me ask you this.

In say, the start of the nineteenth century, what would the percentage of believers to nonbelievers be?

Now, in 2010, what is it?

What does this change indicate?

Post by kattib

The thing is though, you don't consider religion rational while 2,000,000,000+ people do.

That is the logical fallacy Ad Populum

Why is christianity the best thing when 5,000,000,000+ people dont think it is
Why is Islam the best thing when 5,000,000,000+ people dont think it is
Why is Judaism the best thing when 6,500,000,000+ people dont think it is
Why is (x religion) the best thing when (7,000,000,000-number of people in x religion+) people dont think it is

(yes btw the world population is closer to 7 billion then 6 now so thats coo)

Post by Monday

Post by Skreeran

Way to dismiss the rest of the post. Please, actually look at the point I am trying to make.

The thing is though, you don't consider religion rational while 2,000,000,000+ people do.

Thus what some may consider rational others do not.

What I am getting at here is that people continually state their rational to be the only true rational. I am pointing out there are about 2,000,000,000 or so people think it is the correct rational.

I am not saying that because so many people believe it that it must be true. I am saying that there are many people who disagree with you, so don't state your opinion as fact.

Now let me do a /facepalm at Kattib and Limbero.I don't blame a man for having the chicken pox. I don't blame a man for having a cultural virus either.

The most normal, rational man can have his judgment warped when he's taught from birth that Santa Claus exists and everyone he knows believe it too.

Post by Monday

Post by Skreeran

What's your point?

I don't believe my view to be warped. You might, but I also consider your view to be warped. Nobody wins.

And the whole purpose of that post was to correct some people who were taking quotes out of context.My point is that there's no point in using the "5 billion people believe X" argument. I know why they believe what they do, and I'm doing my best to cure it.

And before anyone says that I'm some kind of terrorist or religious person hater, my solution isn't "Exterminate the infected." I think that, considering non-belief growing faster than it ever has before, eventually, the religious virus will eventually whither and die as it finally becomes a minority and rationalism becomes prevalent. This may not end up being true, or it may take a thousand years, but it is my goal.

Post by Monday

My point is that there's no point in using the "5 billion people believe X" argument.

And I didn't use it.

I only used that phrase to show there are many differing points of view.

Post by Squishalot

I'm 100% sure what my own beliefs are, but the difference is that my beliefs are self correcting. What right do you have to say I don't have the right to do something?

Because it's morally incorrect to be rude and be disrespectful of others?

I suppose it could seem similar to science if you were a caveman (insert offended caveman here). You flip the switch and the light comes on. That's how electricity works. It's magic! You pray and the cancer goes away. It's magic!

However, I can explain to you (or at least, someone can explain to you, if I can't) how electricity is produced, how it reaches you house, how it produces the light you see, and how your flipping the switch completes the circuit which allows the current to continuously flow from the switch to the wall.

You can't do that with faith healing. All you can give us is the "flip the switch and the light comes on" explanation. That's not good enough for me.

Well, yes and no. The 'flip the switch' explanation is that she prayed and used all these religious symbols. The whole cycle and circuit which allows the current to continuously flow is the explanation of God's continuous love. It's just that you don't like that explanation ;) I don't either, but I'm willing to respect the idea that it could be the work of a deity - because that's not incompatible with my understanding of the universe, it's a valid theory, irrespective of my belief as to whether it's true or not.

I wouldn't say that. However, if my doctor told me to pray that I get better rather than treating me, I'd probably find a new doctor.

I have higher scientific standards than the church, I think. After all, they already believe in magic. It's no leap of faith for them to believe something magical happened.

Would you say that you've got higher scientific standards than your doctor, just because he believes in (*cough*) magic? You have said that - that you think Christian scientists are less reliable than non-Christian scientists.

However, since you asked, I would probably wager, based on my understanding of the universe, that there is some law that we haven't discovered yet that governs the behavior of quantum particles. I don't think that it is fundamentally unexplainable. I think that we merely have not explained it yet.

However, I'm willing to trust the quantum physicists on this, should they ever agree on anything.

That's no different from explaining God. It's based on your understanding of the universe, and it's not fundamentally unexplainable. Again, if you assume that God is possible, it's not unexplainable.

And all of it is based on something that probably doesn't exist. So yes, I will criticize religion and religious thinking, because I think that it helps further the cause of human freedom from evolution, even if just a little bit.

Criticising is fine. Being rude and disrespectful isn't.

I don't hate religious people. I've told you that. There are religious people that I hate, like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson, but I that is because of them as individuals. I do not hate religious people just for being religious. In fact, I pity them in a way.

Let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we?

The fact is, the religion is practice by the people. Most denominations that I myself have encountered and read about do in fact believe in prayer-based healing, and hell, and that homosexuality is an abomination, and I hate them.

"I hate the people who believe in prayer-based healing, and hell, and that homosexuality is an abomination."

But all of that is just a part of why I hate religion. The majority of it, the core of it, is my hatred for human ignorance. I don't mean ignorance as "intolerance," as it's come to connotate, but the true form of the word. I hate that 45% of American adults actually believe that the Earth was created in 6 days 6000-10,000 years ago, despite not only the lack of evidence for their claims, but the heaps of evidence to the contrary. I hate that these people refuse to look at these things rationally, instead sticking unshakingly to whatever their parents and religious leaders tell them. I hate that these people have so much pull in my society.

"I hate people who are ignorant, and I hate the fact that they're in positions that can influence people."

Imagine if you lived in a world where 75% or more of the world you lived in actually believed in elves, unicorns, mermaids, and sparkly vampires with all their hearts, no matter how little evidence there was to support that idea. I hate the very idea of blind faith.

"I hate people who have blind faith."

And so, I reiterate my post in reply to TheMediator:

If you think that someone who continually preaches hate on people with different beliefs is someone to be respected, then I know a few Muftis that I can introduce you to. This is classic intolerance. This is why I've kept trying to reinforce - bring the player, not the class; bring the person, not the religious stereotype.

Post by Skreeran

Post by Squishalot

My point is that there's no point in using the "5 billion people believe X" argument.

And I didn't use it.

I only used that phrase to show there are many differing points of view.I know that.

What is your point?

You're arguing at cross-purposes.

His point is that you can be rational and yet have different points of view.

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Squishalot

Because it's morally incorrect to be rude and be disrespectful of others?

I'd call those issues of courtesy, not morality. So no, I don't think it's immoral to be rude or disrespectful to others.

Why are we courteous, if not because it's morally right to be so?

Would you say that you've got higher scientific standards than your doctor, just because he believes in (*cough*) magic?

Standards are not the same thing as knowledge. I would have no problem with someone saying they have scientific standards than their theist doctor, assuming you understand their opinion.

I don't think Skreeran does. He's stating that he has higher standards than a theist doctor, and stating it as a fact, without knowing what standards said theist doctor has.

Imagine you and the doctor are running statistical tests. He runs his at 0.001% confidence, because as a medical scientist, he has rigorous standards. What sort of standards do you have? What do his beliefs have to do with his ability as a scientist?

Post by Skreeran

Well, yes and no. The 'flip the switch' explanation is that she prayed and used all these religious symbols. The whole cycle and circuit which allows the current to continuously flow is the explanation of God's continuous love. It's just that you don't like that explanation ;) I don't either, but I'm willing to respect the idea that it could be the work of a deity - because that's not incompatible with my understanding of the universe, it's a valid theory, irrespective of my belief as to whether it's true or not.How do you know that the religious symbols had any affect?

I can see "a" switch being flipped, and I can see the light coming on, but no one has yet offered me an explanation as to how it works. I pose that, since the light only comes on once in ten thousand times the switch is flipped, that the actual switch is somewhere else where I can't see it.

Would you say that you've got higher scientific standards than your doctor, just because he believes in (*cough*) magic? You have said that - that you think Christian scientists are less reliable than non-Christian scientists.That's not what I said. What I said was that it's easier to convince a the Pope that magic has happened than it is to convince me. Because the Pope believes that magic is an acceptable answer. The Pope/committee/whatever is the one who ultimately gets to canonize a Saint. All the doctors can do is show that they don't understand what happened.

When the Pope decides that magic has happened, and I decide that we don't fully understand what happened, I think that I have higher standards.

That's no different from explaining God. It's based on your understanding of the universe, and it's not fundamentally unexplainable. Again, if you assume that God is possible, it's not unexplainable.First of all, I don't assume that God exists. Why should I? Why should you? Why should anyone?

I accept the premise that perhaps God may exist, but I don't assume it to be fact, because it is still unproven.

I believe that some law exists to govern the behavior of quantum particles, but I don't know what it is yet. I won't assume that it is quantum elves directing each particle, because that theory has no backing.

I believe that something caused that woman to get healthy again, but I don't know what it was yet. I won't assume that it was God, because the "evidence" used to prove that it was God is not very strong. Has there never been a case of a non-religious person recovering from terminal cancer?

Criticising is fine. Being rude and disrespectful isn't.I don't think that I am being rude or disrespectful at all. Perhaps I'm not being as politically correct and sensitive as our sugar-coated society would like, but as I'm sure Funden can tell you, my lack of respect is for the belief system alone, not the people. We both frequent the Lore and Roleplaying board, and I have nothing against him as a person. Perhaps I'm not respectful of the belief in magic, but I don't see why I should be respectful to something I see to be a virus of the mind.

Let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we?

The fact is, the religion is practice by the people. Most denominations that I myself have encountered and read about do in fact believe in prayer-based healing, and hell, and that homosexuality is an abomination, and I hate them.
"I hate the people who believe in prayer-based healing, and hell, and that homosexuality is an abomination."Hmm... I feel like I'm being taken out of context here, but I'm not sure. I only vaguely recall saying that. Perhaps I was in a particularly bad mood. Perhaps I meant I hate the denominations.

I know many religious people. Statistically, most people that I know believe in a god or gods. There are many people that I hate who believe in faith-based healing, hell, and that homosexuality is an abomination, but I don't automatically hate anyone who believes those things.

I am vehemently opposed to dangerous homophobia (violence, verbal abuse, blocking human rights, etc.) and I really don't appreciate being told that I'm going to suffer for eternity, but very few beliefs are able to incite hate in me right off the bat.

But all of that is just a part of why I hate religion. The majority of it, the core of it, is my hatred for human ignorance. I don't mean ignorance as "intolerance," as it's come to connotate, but the true form of the word. I hate that 45% of American adults actually believe that the Earth was created in 6 days 6000-10,000 years ago, despite not only the lack of evidence for their claims, but the heaps of evidence to the contrary. I hate that these people refuse to look at these things rationally, instead sticking unshakingly to whatever their parents and religious leaders tell them. I hate that these people have so much pull in my society."I hate people who are ignorant, and I hate the fact that they're in positions that can influence people."This is true. I hate ignorant people.

Not all religious people are ignorant. Not all ignorant people are religious. I hate ignorant people, especially when they have power over me.

Imagine if you lived in a world where 75% or more of the world you lived in actually believed in elves, unicorns, mermaids, and sparkly vampires with all their hearts, no matter how little evidence there was to support that idea. I hate the very idea of blind faith."I hate people who have blind faith."I hate the very idea of blind faith.

Not people who have blind faith, although I will admit that they often irk me. I hate the IDEA.

If you think that someone who continually preaches hate on people with different beliefs is someone to be respected, then I know a few Muftis that I can introduce you to. This is classic intolerance. This is why I've kept trying to reinforce - bring the player, not the class; bring the person, not the religious stereotype.I've told you before. I hate the concepts involved with religion. I hate the ideas. I hate the effects. I do not, however, hate all religious people.

Post by Monday

Criticising is fine. Being rude and disrespectful isn't.
I don't think that I am being rude or disrespectful at all. Perhaps I'm not being as politically correct and sensitive as our sugar-coated society would like, but as I'm sure Funden can tell you, my lack of respect is for the belief system alone, not the people. We both frequent the Lore and Roleplaying board, and I have nothing against him as a person.

Same. When I see threads that Skree makes in the L&RP I prepare myself for an awesome Fan-fic or a well thought out lore post.

But in the randomness boards he's my sworn enemy (after Orranis of course =P )

Post by Orranis

Post by 204878

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Skreeran

Post by Orranis

Post by Skreeran

This is true. I hate ignorant people.

Not all religious people are ignorant. Not all ignorant people are religious. I hate ignorant people, especially when they have power over me.

I do not hate ignorant people, I am just extremely frustrated by them, and I do not think it should be mindlessly tolerated.Perhaps we have different definitions of the word "hate."

Perhaps, or perhaps we have worded the same thing differently.

I do not hate ignorant people, I hate ignorance. Ignorant people frustrate me (though often amuse me.)Hmm...

I suppose I could say the same thing.

I hate willful ignorance. Conscious ignorance.

When someone is ignorant in the sense that they do not know or understand something, that is fine. When someone does not understand something and they fight to stay that way, that is what bugs me.

And the hate starts flowing freely when they start affecting my life.

Hell

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