Draenei offical swept under the rug..

Post by FarseerLolotea

With the help of Demons, Fel magic, and the Ogres; without those, who knows how the war would have ended.It should also be noted that the orcs only managed anything by way of completely ignoring getting hit in the face by a cluebat and nearly destroying themselves as a result.

(And how the heck am I supposed to type a captcha that consists partially of musical notes?)

Post by Skreeran

So has the Hinterlands been mentioned anywhere in here yet?

A lot of new Draenei stuff there.

Post by FarseerLolotea

So has the Hinterlands been mentioned anywhere in here yet?

A lot of new Draenei stuff there.I know I commented over on the other thread. Two new named NPCs and a bunch of generic baby vindicators, IIRC.

(The first word of the captcha was "anchorite." Considering that one of the new draenei NPCs is a priest, that's absolutely priceless.)

Post by sushigaski

I think the most simple explanation for why the Draenei and Blood Elves haven't gotten as much of an update in Cataclysm is... The Burning Crusade expansion.

Seriously. Vanilla wow introduced the game. The Burning Crusade was pretty much the Blood Elf / Draenei expansion, focusing on them a ton. The Wrath of the Lich King was focused primarily on Arthas and the killing of him, so there wasn't that much race-specific content.

The whole point of Cataclysm is to revamp the Vanilla content. You'll notice that Outland and Northrend are not changing much at all. Since Blood Elf / Draenei starting areas are not vanilla, but rather BC content, I wouldn't expect them to have as much of an update as other areas.

So I don't feel that the devs are trying to 'sweep the Draenei (or BElfs) under the rug.' The reason they aren't doing much with them this expansion is simply that the focus of Cataclysm is different.

Post by Adamsm

Post by 229054

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Post by sushigaski

So I don't feel that the devs are trying to 'sweep the Draenei (or BElfs) under the rug.' The reason they aren't doing much with them this expansion is simply that the focus of Cataclysm is different.Except both races are found across the Vanilla world....

.... So?

The races who got the biggest changes (excluding the new races) were probably the Trolls and Gnomes. This is because every other race already had a specific starting area unique to them. Gnomes now get a cool introductory questline, and Trolls have a unique questing area. I think that the Gnomes would have a different area than the Dwarves entirely if not for the fact that Gnomeregon is so close to Ironforge geographically.

Then the more clunky starting areas were revamped. I always hated starting Tauren toons on live because of how spread out the opening area is and how clunky it all feels. Switch to Beta, and I have had a blast leveling a Tauren Paladin through the intro quests. A lot of areas needed to be streamlined because of new (better) design paradigms. The devs have gotten better at what they do over the last few years, so the Cataclysm expansion's main purpose is to update the clunkier areas.

The Blood Elf / Draenei starting areas don't need the same kind of radical update as the other areas. I probably have more Draenei / Blood Elf toons than any other races combined simply because it is so much quicker and more streamlined to do their introductory quest-lines. They don't need the update as much as others. Plus, the storylines about these two races are integral to the full storyline of a previous expansion, The Burning Crusade, which is not included in the Azeroth face-lift of Cataclysm. It is already choppy to go from Cataclysm leveling content (which is all new) to Burning Crusade, and, in my opinion, it would be made worse by changing the starting areas of the Blood Elves and Draenei.

The reason I say all of that above is because the biggest chunks of lore that are race specific all take place in the starting zones. After you get out of the starting areas, you start merging into the general storyline of your faction. I can't think of any Blood Elf or Draenei specific quests when you get past the second leveling area -- at all. Blood Elves typically go and start doing the same things that the Undead were doing before, Draenei start following the Night Elves around. You travel to the other continent to group with others, do instances, etc etc etc. This flows well enough on live servers, and with the improved quest design in Cataclysm it should flow even better in beta (I haven't taken a Belf or Draenei out of the starting area on beta yet... so much to do, so little time).

Beyond these introductory areas, new lore / content is new for all of the races. The whole Deathwing story is not particularly race or faction specific, and is the biggest thing happening in the expansion. The new leveling areas have all sorts of people from all sorts of races acting in all sorts of roles. The tensions between Alliance and Horde are more faction oriented than race oriented.

While I agree that it would be cool to see some more updates for the two BC races, I recognize that it isn't as pressing to update them as it is the vanilla races. They got to be the spotlight focus for an entire expansion already. They already have excellent starting areas. There isn't as much to 'fix.'

Post by Adamsm

While I agree that it would be cool to see some more updates for the two BC races, I recognize that it isn't as pressing to update them as it is the vanilla races. They got to be the spotlight focus for an entire expansion already. They already have excellent starting areas. There isn't as much to 'fix.'They don't need a spotlight, but it would be nice to see new things with the Draenei; so far, all we have is the Earthen Ring with the Broken, something new happening in the Harborage in the Swamp and now the HInterlands; out of roughly 50 odd zones, that's it(at this point in time); there are numerous areas where there is a draenei quest giver, such as Darkshire, Southshore and Stormwind, but they give a one off quest and that's all.

There is also the base at Forest Song, which is apparently still in the process of being set up 5 years(started just before BC came out, one year for the expansion, one year for Wrath and the 2-3 years that pass between the end of Wrath and Cata); you'd think by now it would be completed.

As said here in the thread; there is one Draenei quest chain in all of Northrend, and the only other ones are those at the AT and a few random NPC's in ICC. So yeah, for those who like the race, it would be nice to see some more Draenei across Azeroth, showing that they are connecting into the Alliance as a larger whole, and not as just a one shot.

Post by FarseerLolotea

The Burning Crusade was pretty much the Blood Elf ~~/ Draenei~~ expansion, focusing on them a ton. There, it's more accurate now.

So I don't feel that the devs are trying to 'sweep the Draenei (or BElfs) under the rug.' I don't think there are many people who'd claim they're sweeping blood elves under the rug. Blood elves at least get a new class and a few bases.

So, we knew they were once pretty, that a small part of the ancient ones survived and that they had magic? Thats still far from being far from the modern draenei."Far from being far from the modern draenei?" That's about the opposite of what I think you were trying to claim...and, oddly, your misstatement makes it more accurate.

Hell...considering how little has actually been done with draenei, we already knew about half of the story by the time BC launched.

Thats not the point. We had seen Worgen, High Elves, Furbolg and Pandaren (at least we had already seen all we already know of them, if not in game) while ''oh, the draenei were once pretty".First of all: as I've already stated, more was already known about the draenei than just "Broken are mutants." And actually, we hadn't seen pandaren in WoW; in fact, their presence in the RTS game was so limited that people still dismiss them as a joke. As for worgen, they were introduced in vanilla WoW.

I disagree with the Dark Portal which is just a portal.Nope. If the Exodar's a spaceship, the Dark Portal is a stargate (and orcs are Martians). The Tempest Keep is/was a grand fortress of magitek with automatons, massive teleportation and more.Note that said automatons were created either by blood elves, demons, or leper gnomes.

But while I agree that people might have been to quick to pick the fire enchanted pitchforks the whole thing must have started from early previews when it seemed appropriate for a sci-fi environment.If anyone looks at floating crystal palaces and thinks "sci-fi," I hate to guess what they'd think of ElfQuest.

Now, compare Hillsbrad Foothills to Zangarmarsh. Compare Blackrock Mountains to Netherstorm. Its very likely that you'll feel ''sci-fied''.Hillsbrad Foothills versus Zangarmarsh? Standard fantasy setting versus something very atypical and weird. I prefer atypical and weird. There's little or nothing in Netherstorm that wasn't built by goblins that makes me think "s-f."

While the Worgen were indeed heavily retconned. The Retcon affected a largely forgotten, if not blatanly ignored, part of Lore but still kept what everyone knew of the Worgen intactAnd that's all equally true of the draenei.

(which isn't much, we knew that they were werewolves and that there were the Scythe of Elune, Arugal and there was already a speculation of how Gilneas might have been affected by the Worgen Curse).If by "speculation," you mean one fan idea put out by the same guy allegedly responsible for the infamous list. The general consensus was that the wall went up before there were even worgen in the area. And Arugal previously had nothing to do with Gilneas.

The Draenei were also heavily retconned. And their retcon not only revealed inexplored corners of WoW Lore but also ''changed'' everything that the general populace knew of them. It ''changed'' their appearance, culture, added the Light to the whole thing and much more. To make things worse, I think there were fewer lorenerds at the time of BC but I could be wrong.Actually, aside from the one actual retcon of "who corrupted who," little or nothing that we knew about the draenei was changed.

We knew unmutated draenei were "beautiful" by human standards. Despite the fact that they're catfish-whiskered first kin to demons, it's still canon that they're attractive catfish-whiskered first kin to demons.

We knew that they were magically adept. This is still the case; they're priests and arcanists who have recently picked up shamanism over a relatively short timeline (albeit on a small scale) as well.

We knew that they were inquisitive. Yes, they're also devout, but the two are not mutually exclusive.

We knew that they built "crude" cities. And while I wouldn't call their buildings "crude," they're certainly big and rough-hewn enough to make one think that all draenei architects are either female or play for the other team.

Now, the draenei did shatter a few fan theories. But that's really beside the point.

So its really easier to dismiss the Worgen's retcon.Of course it is...if you're being purposely selective.

Post by 338900

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Post by Adamsm

I disagree with the Dark Portal which is just a portal.Nope. If the Exodar's a spaceship, the Dark Portal is a stargate (and orcs are Martians).

Orcs aren't from Mars.

captcha was: In Chearely. Pretty accurate decription of my attitude.

Hellfire is a red zone... looks like some of the movie versions of Mars.

Post by 229054

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Post by FarseerLolotea

Orcs aren't from Mars.Draenor was called "the red world" in some of the RTS games. Furthermore, most orcs are green now.

In a scale of 1 to 10 on the proximity towards fully describing the Draenei its even lower than 1.How do you figure? Considering how little lore draenei still have, it's closer to half.

(1)So could you please specify what more did we know of the draenei? Because all you've said up until this moment is that once, a dev threw in the forums that the broken draenei were once appealing to the human eye and also (you) said that we also knew that they were inclined towards arcane magic (although I don't know from where this comes from).I can't recall where the bit about their being magically gifted came from originally, but it was pre-WoW. The bits about inquisitiveness and "crude" cities is from the History of Warcraft in-game books.

(2)People still dismiss Pandaren as a joke? Since they were made cannon I've seen this just once. Right now.I'm surprised that you've missed it. It's a fairly common complaint that I've heard, as opposed to a sentiment that I actually hold.

And, according to your previews posts, ''people'' or ''fandumb'' aren't a good source. Specially those who can't move with times, if there are any, because I haven't seen a single one of these ''people'' you speak of.Again: pandaren played an incredibly minor role in the RTS games, and none whatsoever in WoW unless you count the minipet.

(3)And through Vanilla WoW they were known by the players who had a ''intimate'' contact with the race. Much more intimate than a dev who said that the broken draenei were once cute.By that logic, the Alliance is lucky they get worgen instead of, say, murlocs. Because, seriously, the same could be said of murlocs.

I don't watch the Stargate series (or any sci-fi) so I'm not clear if it means to be more than a spaceship. So I'll reply as if it is:

The Dark Portal is much like a standard mage portal but its also semi-permanent and much larger.And the wings of Tempest Keep are akin to Dalaran. Your point?

Tempest Keep is described by Wowwiki as a ''self-contained Dark Portal which operates on the same principle''. It also has automatons and everything else the Exodar also has and an advanced crystal driven technology that fills the needs of anyone who lives on it.

Considering that we don't know much of the Naaru, Tempest Keep might even be a common thing in the grand scheme of things while the Dark Portal was ''unique'' in the sense that excessive use of such techonology can blow planets apart. Therefore, ''Naaru Magitek'' is clearly much more evolved than the Dark Portal.It's not "technology," it's magic. And continuing on that subject...

Nope, the automated defenses were already there when Kael'thas sieged Tempest Keep.So...there are supposed to be fel reavers, leper gnomes and their mecha, and arcane guardians akin to those found in blood elf settlements all over a naaru fortress? That sounds fishy.

Don't forget: in space!So...the Palace of the High Ones is Tempest Keep in space? Because naaru fortresses travel through the equivalent of the Astral Plane.

When people began describing what Northrend would feel like the phrase ''Blizzard is taking a more traditional approach as opposed to the Burning Crusade's Outland" was a normal thing to be heard here and there. So I don't think that the fact that Outland's many environments, specially Netherstorm, where drawn much closer to ''sci-fi'' is actually debatable.Again: some people will find any excuse to complain about any departure from the standard fantasy setting. I see no difference here.

Beautiful? Isn't that a very subjective term? So how come it means anything when just tossed around alone?

I've read a Cataclysm Alliance quest where a human says that he's ''barely used to the draenei and things didn't get much better now that the worgen came into the fray''. So perhaps the humanoid beauties of said race weren't still appealing enough to turn one's eyes from the ''weird'' traits that different races have. This shows how subjetive beauty is.Aesthetics are always subjective. But the fact that it's been stated more than once in tie-in novels suggests that it's a fairly common opinion.

As for that human character's statement? It has nothing to do with appearance.

This clearly doesn't mean anything in a setting that even kobolds are magically adept in some way.We may be having translation issues here. If you say that a race is "magically adept," the connotation is different from just mentioning that they have spellcasters.

Can that be considered a racial trait? Even so, how much exactly do you think that says about them?Not racial, but cultural.

It says that they seek out knowledge. In fact, if you read Rise of the Horde, that was one of the big cultural traits that Sargeras exploited in order to corrupt the eredar.

I would. In fact, I expected a bit more from the Draenei.No more "crude" than Stormwind, and a hell of a lot more exotic.

So the word ''crude'' is also very subjective and also means nothing.No, it's not. "Crude" is not just an aesthetic statement; it implies both roughly utilitarian and somewhat slipshod.

Anyways, these things you've listed came from where exactly? These remember me the draenei rumor that popped up not much before they were announced as the new alliance race.See above. And the draenei rumor had it that the Alliance was getting either Lost Ones or (thanks to a nice piece of Photoshop work that was in circulation for a while) the aforementioned tall, pretty, green-tinted humans.

Post by icritmypants

What kind of lore do you want? Do you want your leader to leave and be replaced? Have your race get attacked/attack someone else? Do you want them to do something controversial? All of the above?

Post by Alliari

More involvement I'd say. Have more than just 6 quest givers, have a say in Alliance politics, not being the guy waving his hand in the corner saying 'Hey...don't forget I'm here too!'

I'd personally like to see Vindicator Marrad be...more cool. we don't know that much about his back story, they could amek one up something like...'Marrad was and still is one of Velen's closest and most trusted gaurds and advisors. Marrad used to guard Velen while on diplomatic trips on Argus, and even gave his 2 cents every once in a while about important matters.

And the Exodar rebuilt...that would be coolio.

Post by Adamsm

I'd personally like to see Vindicator Marrad be...more cool. we don't know that much about his back story, they could amek one up something like...'Marrad was and still is one of Velen's closest and most trusted gaurds and advisors. Marrad used to guard Velen while on diplomatic trips on Argus, and even gave his 2 cents every once in a while about important matters.He's off training his nephew the Guardian in his Light based powers.

Post by 306612

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Post by Adamsm

You know, we have, as far as notable characters, Velen, Maraad and Nobundo in the Draenei camp.

Should they get more lore figures? Get themselves spread across the Alliance a bit?

Yes, yes they should heh; it's funny, there are several 'high ranking' Draenei leaders in Shattrah.... and barely anyone can remember their names(even me).

1. The Aldor leader female
2. The General of the Shattered Sun Offensive
3. Commanders of the SSO.
.....there are more I'm sure, but I can't think of any.

Post by FarseerLolotea

You know, we have, as far as notable characters, Velen, Maraad and Nobundo in the Draenei camp.More than that, but...yeah. There's a shortage.

Should they get more lore figures? Get themselves spread across the Alliance a bit?Both.

Yes, yes they should heh; it's funny, there are several 'high ranking' Draenei leaders in Shattrah.... and barely anyone can remember their names(even me).

1. The Aldor leader femaleIshanah.

2. The General of the Shattered Sun OffensiveTiras'alan.

3. Commanders of the SSO.I'd name names, but it's easier to take this list and cherry-pick. Or should that be blueberry-pick? (By the way: what's up with Vindicator Moorba? Paladins can't use daggers! HAX!)
.....there are more I'm sure, but I can't think of any.The Triumvirate of the Hand?

Post by Alliari

The Draenei have a good pot of heroes, but most of them are one-liners. They come onto the scene say "Hi there! I'm going to d o this for you!" Then leave. Velen, Akama, Nubondo, and Maraad are the most involved.

Velen is sitting in the Vault of Lights

Akama.......we haven't seen him for a while

Nubondo will most likely (semi-confirmed?) be assisiting Thrall in Earthen Ring duties

Maraad is doing teaching or something Garona's son (Forget his name at the moment, I have never followed the comics.)

Draenei offical swept under the rug..

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