DOTD - Debate of The Day #52

Post by ElhonnaDS

I don't think random drug testing is appropriate. I think that if a child is under the influence of drugs, and showing signs of it, then drug testing would be appropriate for that particular child. As far as I know, if someone is driving under the influence, or behaving in an erratic way in public, the police generally intervene and may request a drug/alcohol test and search the person or vehicle if there is probably cause. If a child is behaving in such a way that the school personnel think they're on drugs, I think it's appropriate to use the same standard. Also, if a child is reported to be using drugs by another child at the school, and is exposing other kids to them, they should definitely be tested and searched.

The school doesn't have to be a police force, but they DO bear some responsibility for controlling the atmosphere and safety of the kids there. If a child is acting like they're on drugs, or is reported to be exposing other kids to drugs, the school needs to handle it. If the child refuses the test, then they should get the same suspension/expulsion as they would have for failing it.

Post by 134377

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Orranis

Edit: As far as the "..unless you let them." part of your response. I realize not 100% of people who smoke weed will in fact move on to worse drugs. But a damn scary amount of them do.

Most people who do hard drugs start with Marijuana, but the opposite is not true. Also, @the craving part, I really don't think you can speak for all of us there, especially if (I assume) you haven't had a lot of experience with the drug personally.

In fact one seems to have more problems due to too much gaming than anything drug related.

I wanted to emphasize this as someone who has had person problems in this exact situation. World of Warcraft especially has the potential to be just as dangerous as Marijuana, maybe worse.

Post by Rystrave

I don't think random drug testing should be allowed.

I know some kids that smoked, snorted, and drank, went to school, did their work, passed the classes and graduated. I even know of at least three that graduated with honors. I also know of some kids that did drugs and dropped out because they became so !@#$ty and "too cool for school." Now, if they had done random drug testing, I'd say more than half of my class would have gotten in trouble.

Nowadays, most of the people I graduated with that smoked still smoke, and have awesome jobs and are successful for being in their 20's.

Post by FatalHeaven

Now, if they had done random drug testing, I'd say more than half of my class would have gotten in trouble.

Soooo... don't do drugs?

Post by Ksero

Now, if they had done random drug testing, I'd say more than half of my class would have gotten in trouble.

Soooo... don't do drugs?

you missed the point of the post, they did drugs and have jobs and are successful in their lives, if they were tested and failed they would not have made it to this point.

The point of a debate is to produce evidence contrary to the opposing view, you just keep stating your view "don't do drugs" without giving evidence to support it, there have been many posts explaining that people can do drugs and still lead successful lives.

Post by Atik

Now, if they had done random drug testing, I'd say more than half of my class would have gotten in trouble.

Soooo... don't do drugs?

Do you have any proof that ones lives will not improve by doing drugs?

Certain people, when high or drunk, will gain 'tunnel vision' which will, in fact, allow them to focus and do better in certain aspects of their lives. Normally unfocused or distracted individuals can use the drugs or alcohol to literally save their education.

Post by Magician22773

there have been many posts explaining that people can do drugs and still lead successful lives.

So, what you want is some "proof" that using drugs is bad?

Post by Ksero

there have been many posts explaining that people can do drugs and still lead successful lives.

So, what you want is some "proof" that using drugs is bad?

Yes, prove that drugs are bad outright and i would be fine with having testing in schools, the thing is 95% of the people who are using drugs can do so without it adversely affecting their lives, if they failed a drug test, 100% of the time it adversely affects there lives. if they don't have to get tested they keep on using drugs and controlling it themselves. If it gets to the point where drug use is adversely affecting there lives, the test isn't neccessary anymore.

Edit: marijuana is mainly what im talking about, you don't really see harder drugs than that in schools.

Post by FatalHeaven

Do you have any proof that ones lives will not improve by doing drugs?

I will give a personal example. Since thats all anyone has given anyways other then when I clearly stated the drug tests improved grades and attendance and made violence decline. And not because all the users tested positive and were expelled. Our drop out rate did not increase.

How drugs do not improve your life:

My brother was a nice enough kid by most accounts. Got good grades, listened to the parentals, stayed in school, played sports...etc. Then when he was 15, and I was 12, he discovered drugs. Starting with marijuana. He became not so nice anymore. Always irritable, skipping classes, getting in physical fights with pretty much everyone. It got to the point where depending on the day, he was suicidal because of the "f*** up he became" (his words not mine) or he was literally beating me til I was unconscious. Oh but when he came off the high, he was sorry and nice and you could tell he meant the apology. But he was now addicted. He couldn't say no to the drug which meant that I never knew when I would next be laying on the floor. I'm not sure I would say it was a highlight but I think the violence really got worse when he attempted to drown me one day while swimming at the nearby lake. What was he on at the time? Marijuana. Period. Yes he would also do more "hard" drugs when he could afford it but the majority of the time it was just weed. Just weed....that's what people always say.... He moved out right before his 17th birthday but for damn near two years I was abused in every way and it started with...just weed... Do I forgive him? I guess.... Is he clean now? Honestly I'm not positive. But it's there. It happened. And please do not attempt to tell me that it was a secluded case. This happens everywhere. Maybe not in your neighborhood, but it happens. Drugs ARE bad. That's all the argument I feel I need.

Not to mention everybody heres case seems to be based on personal experience. Why should I feel like I'd make any ground when a large percentage of people here seem to be or have had been users?

Post by FatalHeaven

Edit: marijuana is mainly what im talking about, you don't really see harder drugs than that in schools.

That's funny... really....

Post by Ksero

First off I want to say that I feel really sorry for you that you had to go through that, the thing is though that isn't the norm. People are more violent and aggressive when drinking alcohol than when on marijuana, it comes from the way the drugs work.

Two of my friends have told me if they didn't start smoking marijuana they would have committed suicide, one of them has since stopped smoking, the other still smokes occasionally.

My Mother smokes marijuana medicinally, she suffers from a brain injury that she sustained 8 years ago, it is the only painkiller that (A) works in minutes, and she can still function on (B) doesn't make her throw up, and (C) she can safely take with all her other medication.

The first person to pass me a joint was my dad, i was 16, it was at a poker game with his friends (3 of which were bosses at my last place of employment). I smoked 3 times in the following year, when i got to university I started to smoke more often, mainly for recreation, sometimes if i needed to focus and get a paper done. I'm heading into my third year of university now, and i have quit smoking marijuana cause it didnt have the same calming effect it use to have on me, just felt like i was wasting money on it . I have been sober for 2 and a half months, no cravings at all. Having a serious relationship during my first year had more of an effect on my marks than weed has ever done.

Why should I feel like I'd make any ground when a large percentage of people here seem to be or have had been users?

Right, and you seem to not like us defending that we can have lives while using drugs.

I went through my facebook friends, Out of the first 200 I went through 124 smoke and or have smoked marijuana for sure, there was a few more i assume have but for the sake of clean data im going off what i know for sure.

Of those who smoked:
78 are in university
23 are in college
14 are employed
6 are unemployed
3 have there own business

Yes, drugs can ruin lives. Id really appreciate if you'd stop saying they are outright bad though.

Post by FatalHeaven

#6: Is it worth the cost to host the Olympic games?

Honestly, on this I am torn.

On one hand, the Olympics bring a huge amount of recognition and stature to a hosting country. The country will become more well-known. This will increase tourism and travel to that country, and especially to that region. The Olympics themselves will bring a large boost to the economy. Fans from all over the world will come to the events. Hotels, restaurants, tourist shops and stores will all make lots of money during the games.

But on the other hand, It can cost millions of dollars for a city to build up an area selected to host the Olympics. And then the stadium is used once and forgotten about. It is almost impossible for the same city to host the Olympics again within a reasonable amount of time, and when they do, they would have to rebuild everything all over again, because their previous stadiums will be out of date.

What do you think?

Post by Ksero

I'm going to say yes, if its not worth it then why do cities apply in the first place? The stadium will not be used once and then forgotten, it will be a state of the art facility that will continue to bring revenue into the city for years to come.

Post by donnymurph

I might weigh on on this one, but before I do I just want to ask the non-Australians a few questions:

What do you recall about the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000?
How important of a city do you think Sydney is globally? (I know results from studies, but I'm interested to hear a layman's opinion)
Would you consider Sydney to be one of the top 5 places you would want to visit? Did the 2000 Olympics have any impact on this attitude?
List some things you know about Sydney.

Post by Magician22773

Yes, prove that drugs are bad outright and i would be fine with having testing in schools, the thing is 95% of the people who are using drugs can do so without it adversely affecting their lives, if they failed a drug test, 100% of the time it adversely affects there lives. if they don't have to get tested they keep on using drugs and controlling it themselves. If it gets to the point where drug use is adversely affecting there lives, the test isn't neccessary anymore.

Edit: marijuana is mainly what im talking about, you don't really see harder drugs than that in schools.

I am (as far as I can go back), a 4th generation addict. Both my father and my grandfather died either directly or indirectly from alcohol and drugs. I actually made it to my 20th birthday without following the "family tradition". Up to that point, I had tried pot 1 time, and hated it. Most of my friends were regular pot smokers, but I really just never cared for it, so I stayed away.

On my 20th birthday, my girlfriend convinced me to try a cocaine / meth combo, with the idea that it would make for great sex. And well..it did. Im not gonna lie. I loved it. All of a sudden, parties didn't have to stop at 2 am because I was tired. At the time, I was working 2 jobs, and maybe getting 4-5 hours sleep a day. Powder drugs gave me the ability to work my jobs, and still have the energy to have fun.

I had a couple rough years there, but I never really fell into the addiction too bad. And when my girlfriend and I split up, I pretty much left the drug use behind. During that time, I reunited with what is now my wife, and we had our first son. I made it 6 years clean, but while my wife was pregnant with our 2nd child, I once again found myself working 2 jobs. The temptation was just too great. I knew what the drugs could do for me when I came to an endless supply of energy.

This time, however, I fell all the way down the spiral. In less than a year, I was an everyday user, either meth or cocaine. I left both my jobs, and started a business of my own, which made things even worse, as it became quite successful very quickly. This only provided me with the financial means to support an even bigger habit. It also finally became impossible to hide my use from my family. (Up to this point, I had been able to, somehow, maintain a normal life, while fully addicted. I would even "fake" sleep as a way to hide it).

On July 9, 2002 I was arrested. I had been caught up in a major drug sting operation, and had been under investigation for almost 9 months. I was charged with 7 felony counts ranging from possesion all the way to manufacturing a controlled substance. (FWIW, I never cooked meth, however, I was buying directly from a cook, so I was charged by association)

Proof enough for you? It was for me.

And I am sure you will say I an one of the 5% that just "couldn't handle it".

When I was using I had 4 close friends that I partied with.

Chris is serving life in prison for pulling a gun on an undercover cop during a drug buy.
Billy is serving 20 years for a high-speed chase with his 2 kids in the car.
Don is serving 15 years for possesion of illegal fireams and drugs.
Jason died from an overdose, while awaiting trial for several felony charges.

Oh, and see where I talked about having friends in school that were pot smokers?

Chris was one of those....see above.
Scott was the other. He is also serving life for molesting his younger sisters daughter.

And my girlfriend that introduced me to hard drugs?

She was released in 2009 after serving 6 years for assaulting another girl with a baseball bat over drug debt.

So, it would seem that every single person that I used with was one of the 5%, because every single one of us either served time in prison, or died.

I am not saying that you can't show me people that smoke pot and lead productive lives. I know those people too. But I am pretty sure your 95/5 split is waaay the hell off, especially for those that continue to use into adulthood. (notice that Ksero's examples are mostly all college age, and that my troubles did not really start until I was in my late twenties?)

You are trying to argue that 95% of the time drugs are OK, but getting caught is 100% of the time bad. I could use the same logic on bank robbery. As long as I don't get caught, I am rich. If I do get caught, I am going to prison.

Post by FatalHeaven

I might weigh on on this one, but before I do I just want to ask the non-Australians a few questions:

What do you recall about the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000?
How important of a city do you think Sydney is globally? (I know results from studies, but I'm interested to hear a layman's opinion)
Would you consider Sydney to be one of the top 5 places you would want to visit? Did the 2000 Olympics have any impact on this attitude?

I remember the gymnastics controversy. With the vault horse being set too low. And Svetlana Khorkina storming off without finishing, giving up her shot of Top All-Around Gymnast.
I can't honestly say I've done enough research on my own time to make an educated opinion but from what I do know, yes, I believe it is very much an important city.
Yes I have always wanted to visit Sydney. And no, the Olympics had neither a positive nor negative impact on that. I think it's significant that they hosted the Olympics but not enough to visit there for that purpose alone.

Post by Magician22773

I might weigh on on this one, but before I do I just want to ask the non-Australians a few questions:

What do you recall about the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000?
How important of a city do you think Sydney is globally? (I know results from studies, but I'm interested to hear a layman's opinion)
Would you consider Sydney to be one of the top 5 places you would want to visit? Did the 2000 Olympics have any impact on this attitude?

Honestly, if you had simply asked me where the 2000 Olympics were held, I would have had to Google it.

Other than the Opera House being a really cool looking building, I couldn't tell you a single other thing that I know about the entire city.

I have always wanted to see Austrailia, but more for the Outback and coastal areas, not so much the cities.

Post by Ksero

...
You are trying to argue that 95% of the time drugs are OK, but getting caught is 100% of the time bad. I could use the same logic on bank robbery. As long as I don't get caught, I am rich. If I do get caught, I am going to prison.
Technically you were the one percent that could handle it.

Just so you know, the part you quoted from atik was written by me. The difference with your analogy is Stealing = Wrong, Smoking weed effects you, if you let it effect people around your its your fault, not the drugs, its the same thing as saying guns kill people, people kill people. I hold myself accountable for all things i do under the influence of drugs or alcohol, I was the one who decided to take it.

See my previous post to see where i get the 95% to 5% from. Also i live in Canada, and we don't seem to have a lot of these serious issues that America does with drugs.

Edit: My point was why ruin someones life if they have a possibility to smoke weed and be successful. I would never do coke or meth I've heard, the stories, other than addiction, they completely @#$% up your body, drug education is really good here.

Post by Magician22773

Also i live in Canada, and we dont seem to have a lot of these serious issues that America does with drugs.

And that could be the huge deciding factor here. I honestly don't know much about hard drug use in Canada, but I have a pretty personal view of it here in Missouri, USA.

Other than the fact that I am personally opposed to all drug use, because of obvious reasons, I do see, and agree with on some level, with all of the arguments towards legalizing it. As it stands, it is a "gateway" drug, but not because of some of the reasons others have stated. Around here, if you are around pot enough, you will eventually be around other, harder drugs. I live in the meth-lab capitol of the country. It is much easier to find meth here than it is quality pot. And most people that will get high on pot, will get high on other drugs. I mean, why not? They are all illegal, and they are all fun. Why stop at one?

That is the mentality that I witnessed with every single person I knew that used drugs. And like I said, I do know adults that just smoke weed, and they function just as normally as any other adult in society.But in my experience, your numbers end up flip-flopping after some point. Maybe 5% of the adults that I know that use drugs are succesful, and 95% of them are dead, deadbeats, or in prison. My guess is, that in 15 years, if you look at the same 200 friends, you will find my ratio to be pretty accurate, for those that continued to use. Then again, in 15 years, it may be legal, and both arguments go out the window with that.

DOTD - Debate of The Day #52

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