An article on Varian Wrynn being right

Post by 229054

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Post by Supremacy

Okay, now...

...I think that maybe a few things need to be examined.

First of all, there's a difference between what happened at the Wrathgate, and with the other normal problem factions both sides have. The Defias Brotherhood, for example. Yes, they're from within Stormwind, and have done some bad things. And the Alliance response? Imprison them, or kill them. They are actively trying to dismantle them, as I imagine Thrall is actively trying to dismantle the Shadow Council.

What makes the situation at the Wrathgate so unique is the fact that the Royal Apothecary Society was not operating outside of the rule of the Forsaken. This wasn't a surprise attack in the sense that they just suddenly appeared from thin air. This was a surprise in that they were respected members of the Forsaken, and the Horde...and they betrayed everyone.

That's different than, say, the presence of Katrina Prestor in the throne room. People didn't know what she was. And Arthas, well...I mean, pretty much everyone realized he had just lost his mind even before this Lich King business. But that was a complete surprise to everyone.

What can Sylvanas say? "Yes, this plague that I've been having my people create to destroy anything living was used against our forces." That just raises the question "...what the hell did you need a plague to kill everything living for?"

There's no good answer for that.

It's not so much that the Royal Apothecary Society betrayed the Horde. It's that they betrayed the Horde, and the Alliance, at the worst possible time. The Wrathgate was, I think, a test to see if these forces could work side by side.

...nope.

Post by takakenji

Murphy's Law:
If something bad can happen it will happen at the worst possible time.

anyways, even though varian is a total %^&* he has SOME reason to hate the orcs. Even though at times he can go too far, i don't blame him for his hatred. All he needs is anger management classes and he's set

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Post by Morec0

The Horde is the closest thing you can get to the 'good guys' when it comes to a faction in WoW right now, is what I say.

Post by 229054

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Post by Supremacy

I liked the article, and Daniel makes some good points. But what people have to realize is that the Warcraft universe is about the war between the Orcish Horde and the Human Alliance. Along the way, other races have joined up the fight and are assisting one of the sides.

Both the humans and the orcs have times in their history they aren't proud of. Both sides have splinter factions that act independantly of the main body and not in their name. The mere mention of the Shadow Council, Blackrock Orcs, the Scarlet Crusade, or the Syndicate is irrelevant. Its like saying the tauren are a violent race because of the acts of the Grimtotem Clan.

This is, I think, true. It's just that there's a difference for example, the Syndicate and the Royal Apothecary Society. The former is an example of that splinter factions, a bunch of corrupt Stormwind nobility that somehow became rouges. The latter is a body that had been accepted and well respected within the Forsaken.

It would be like if Staghelm and his forces had suddenly called on the forces of nature to attack both sides during the Wrathgate.

There's a difference.

Garrosh is a hot-headed, arrogant ass.

No argument there. Everyone agrees that Garrosh just need to chill.

Varian is a short-tempered, arrogant bigot. One comment in Part 3 said that those two are different sides of the same coin. And thats the truth. Varian and Garrosh allow their rage and hatred to blind them. Thrall doesn't appreciate the way Garrosh acted in the meeting with Rhonin, "You disappoint me, Garrosh." He said it himself.

This is where I have to disagree. I think the article, for one, did a good job of pointing out that Varian is not short-tempered. He is not hotheaded. He is responding to what he has seen as a lifetime of Horde treachery. He sees them as large a threat to the Alliance as the Scourge. He doesn't see them as trading partners, or anything like that. He feels there are an active, legitimate threat. The article goes a long way into detailing, point by point, why this is justified.

Incidentally, if I were the head of a sovereign nation, and someone I brought with me just tried to kill another sovereign head during a diplomatic meeting? I would probably have a slightly stronger rebuff than "you disappoint me".

Varian challenged Garrosh in full intention of provoking him to attack. Varian is NOT the victim in that quarrel.

This is simply not true. I went ahead and looked at the trailer, again.

The link, for those interested in double checking.

This is what happened.

Thrall and Garrosh enter Rhonin's chamber. Varian is talking to Rhonin. Jaina teleports in, saying "Thrall".

Varian seems surprised by this, as though he didn't expect them at the meeting.

Varian: What? What are they doing here?
Rhonin: Let me explain.

And that very well may have happened, if Rhonin had been allowed to explain. Instead, Garrosh has to chime in.

Garrosh: I thought I smelled the stench of Alliance pigs! *Draws weapons*

So...really...you're arguing that Varian started that? Varian wasn't even specifically talking to the orcs.

And far from being hotheaded? Varian still - still - gave Garrosh a chance to back off.

Varian: You want my blood, dog? Then come take it.

And had Garrosh, you know, put away his axes? Things could have gone differently. But, no. No, Mr. I'm-Mad-At-Everyone-And-Everything-All-The-Time had to escalate things.

I do agree, though, with the fact that Varian was not a victim in this. In as much as he just would not let himself be victimized. But if we're going to assign fault for this?

Let's at least keep it real.

Post by Morec0

Post by Supremacy

Like was pointed out in a different post (something about the Horde, can't remember the name) to back down from a fight is surrendering amongst orcs, and the leader of the Warsong Clans not going to back down.

...

...?

That doesn't make it right. If that really is the case, then Thrall would be as guilty as escalating this conflict as Varian allegedly is.

To clarify my point, neither side is doing the smart thing. Rhonin, Tirion, and everyone else is right. The fate of the world is in the balance. Both sides need to work together.

It's just...I keep seeing so many posts (on this, and other forums) that are implicitly or sometimes flat out accusing Varian Wrynn for being the reason things aren't working. Just claiming he's an irrational hothead who is letting his temper potentially destroy the world.

And that simply is not true.

Post by 229054

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Post by Supremacy

That doesn't make it right.

You're failling to see other's cultures as if you were one of them.
Orcish culture is centered in their recent history of wars, they see dishonor in leaving a battle and only a few (Thrall being one of them) would choose dishonor for peace.

...how about "dishonor" for "not having the world destroyed"?

But that is oversimplifying, yes. The fact is, the orcs are not stupid. They are not all nothing but a bunch of bloodthirsty savages who only meet problems with violence. And part of diplomacy is realizing that you have to put things in perspective. It might be my cultural belief that anyone wearing striped shirts is not to be trusted. Whereas your cultural belief might be that striped shirts are only worn by those with great honor.

We have to find some way to meet in between. Thrall, until recently, has done a good job of that.

But, right. That's a valid point. After all, who is Thrall to tell the orcs that things are different, now? Who is he to try to tell them that their survival as a people depends on them learning to work together with others? I mean, it's not like he united orc clans before. It's not like he has any say in that sort of thing.

I mean, that would mean he's like their leader, or something.

Also, there's another problem I have with that justification. The "there's no honor in leaving a battle" thing. First of all, that wasn't a battle. That was an unprovoked attack during a diplomatic meeting. So, it's not so much "leaving a battle" as it is "accepting that someone made a mistake". Otherwise, an orc could just run into an orphanage and start killing people willy-nilly, and then say that they had to keep going because it would have been dishonorable to quit.

Orcs have conscience. They need to hold themselves to higher standards precisely because they're not bloodthristy savages.

That's one reason I like what Saurfang told Garrosh. I will kill you before letting you bring our people down that dark path again.

And I didn't mention Jaina because, you know...wink wink, nudge nudge. I'm just saying maybe she's not so objective. "If you know what I mean"

Post by Morec0

Must we bring up the fact that Jaina's a @#$%^? She's had and elf, and human, an orc (two of them if you include Thrall) and later a weird looking elf-thing and a frozen zombie king.

We get it.

Post by 229054

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Post by Supremacy

Must we bring up the fact that Jaina's a @#$%^? She's had and elf, and human, an orc (two of them if you include Thrall) and later a weird looking elf-thing and a frozen zombie king.

We get it.

Now, this is how rumors get started.

If I recall, she was only going out with Arthas. And that was before he snapped. She was just friends with everyone else.

But, you know, the media gets a hold of it, and bam. Suddenly the leader of Theramore is seen as some two-bit tart. Me, I'd never call her that. It's just uncouth.

Also, the degree of power she wields is staggering. I'm just saying.

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An article on Varian Wrynn being right

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