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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Skreeran
It was less of a "letting him go" more of a "I should probably not try to stop him going because it will cause me more problems in the long run."
At Dire Maul, I recouped my investment in those two a thousand times over. I knew this day was coming. A man is truly a prisoner only as long as he agrees to remain one. After that, in his heart, at least, he is free. And where his heart is, his body may follow if his will is strong enough.He basically said: "I've gotten my money's worth. This is a great man. I'm not going to stop him from going out and living his life."
In other words: He granted Varian his freedom peacefully.
Post by
109094
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Post by
234440
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Post by
109094
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Post by
234440
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Post by
188262
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109094
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Post by
Skreeran
Just saying, overall, when everything is taken into account. Varian is wrong. He's doing what he thinks is best and he has good reason to believe that it is best, but he wants Thrall dead, and that would mean the end of both the Horde and Alliance, and it is thus wrong. It doesn't matter if he has reason to believe otherwise, consequences are consequences, despite what he has come to believe.
Another problem I have with the article and its supporters stems from this:
Here's my problem with this: The underlying causes of Varian Wrynn's anger are all unconditionally justified. Varian Wrynn is not angry at the Horde because of a series of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. He's been witness to or victim of multiple wrongdoings and atrocities perpetuated by the Horde time and time again, both the new Horde and the Old. Most, if not all of these times, the wrongdoings have been the result of outright maliciousness on the part of the Horde or its members
This is not true. What reason did Varian have to go to war with the Horde before the Wrathgate? He was kidnapped by the DEFIAS, and then taken captive by an orc. One orc. An orc who later set him free. There was the ambush by Garona, but that's not exactly war-starting material...
Might post more later... Sleepy...
Post by
Skreeran
Just saying, overall, when everything is taken into account. Varian is wrong. He's doing what he thinks is best and he has good reason to believe that it is best, but he wants Thrall dead, and that would mean the end of both the Horde and Alliance, and it is thus wrong. It doesn't matter if he has reason to believe otherwise, consequences are consequences, despite what he has come to believe.
Another problem I have with the article and its supporters stems from this:
Here's my problem with this: The underlying causes of Varian Wrynn's anger are all unconditionally justified. Varian Wrynn is not angry at the Horde because of a series of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. He's been witness to or victim of multiple wrongdoings and atrocities perpetuated by the Horde time and time again, both the new Horde and the Old. Most, if not all of these times, the wrongdoings have been the result of outright maliciousness on the part of the Horde or its members
This is not true. What reason did Varian have to go to war with the Horde before the Wrathgate? He was kidnapped by the DEFIAS, and then taken captive by an orc. One orc. An orc who later set him free. There was the ambush by Garona, but that's not exactly war-starting material...
Might post more later... Sleepy...
Post by
234440
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Post by
188262
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Post by
Skreeran
With tensions where they are opening the door to anything more active would just risk more incidents.You mean like trying to kill Thrall?
Post by
HoleofArt
That's a good neutral standpoint view of it. It would be a bad decision to get into a two-front war with the Horde on one side and the Scourge on the other. The problem is, due to his issues, he can't trust them enough to fight alongside them either. His attitude in the Secrets of Ulduar trailer make sense, not backing down when provoked but he pledged isolation from the Horde. I think that's the right answer for now. With tensions where they are opening the door to anything more active would just risk more incidents. It's pragmatic of him not to go into an active alliance with the Horde.
No. HE might not be able to
accept
the Horde as allies for being treated, but if he was an actual good leader, he would go in favor of what needed to be done. Which is work with us. Him holding personal grudges and then using them to go to war? That's a terrible leader. Even looking from his shoes you can still see where going to war would be a terrible idea.
"Justified" my ass. I don't see anyone else freaking out about orcs, especially the people that really matter (i.e. Alexstraza, Rhonin, basically everyone besides him.)
Many people have witnessed the atrocities the orcs caused, but many people learned to forgive and forget. Varian not being able to, for the good of the Alliance, just shows he's weak.
Post by
Skreeran
Alright, I just finished reading the first 17 issues of the Warcraft comics, and I really think there's a good chance that Varian is being manipulated by something...
Read this exerpt from the comic:
Thrall: I, too, was once a gladiator...owned, in my youth, by one of King Terenas' subjects in Lordaeron. I, too, escaped and became a ruler of my people. We have that in common. I imagine we also share a dislike of slavery.
Varian: Slavery is wrong. But Broll, Valeera and I did learn to fight as a team. It was us against the world.
Compare that to what he says in the Undercity:
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
Or maybe he just became an arsehole upon seeing Garona... I continued reading issue 18 and found this gem:
Med'an: Leave my Mother alone! She's under a spell! Can't you see?
Varian: Out of the way, lad!
Anduin: Father! Spare him! He's hurt and he saved me--!
Varian: I've been no child killer--but for Garona's cub, I could make an exception!
Reading the comic has only reaffirmed my belief that Thrall is a thousand times better as a person than Varian...
Post by
234440
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Post by
HoleofArt
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing. What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
So wait... shouldn't this quote be considered as retconned by the comic, then? Sounds odd, but follow my drift - in the comic, he had just a few fights. A fight with some team that just picked on them, a duel with orc blademaster, and then a 3v3 with ogres. That takes it all down to a grand total of ONE green-skinned abberation. So that was all of his horrible arena experience? Oh dear. I have had far worse doing my 10 matches a week in TBC...
The only thing we can do in this matter is to wait... umm... about a year, when the comic finally reaches Wrathgate events. Maybe then it will clarify things, but currently... even the official lore is mixing it all up, perhaps purposely.
Edit: Manipulated... possibly. The guy is completely oblivious to various kinds of mind controls, it seems. Wouldn't be the first time, either.
It's because he fails.
/shrug.
/end thread? Lol.
But no, really, I've yet to see an
actual
arguement for why Varian is in the right here.
Reading the comic has only reaffirmed my belief that Thrall is a thousand times better as a person than Varian...
You had doubts? o.O
xD
Post by
344679
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Post by
Skreeran
Orcs are orcs.
LoL isnt that what your guys point was all about? how they are "new orcs" and stuff? Come on seriously. Look, im not too happy about the new horde but they are sure as heck better then fel orcs and dark horde orcs... come on.Huh? Where ever was that our point?
I'd kinda like to see what your response to the quotes from Varian in the comic is...
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
Orcs are orcs.
LoL isnt that what your guys point was all about? how they are "new orcs" and stuff? Come on seriously. Look, im not too happy about the new horde but they are sure as heck better then fel orcs and dark horde orcs... come on.
Aite, so you havent seen an argument for if varian is right because...
People keep bringing us back to "he is a hotheaded retard!" were just busy arguing to justify if he is right through the information that he has been granted; or in other words justified; not right from information that we can get looking at wowwiki.
Secondly; Bloodelves DID join the horde out of necessity for obvious reasons. they split off from kael; if they went alone they would DIE. Same with the forsaken. The forsaken have the WORST place possible to live. Elwynn has lil kobolds messing around, and theyve got hordes of zombies. of course in game, they are all level ones and all suck... but in lore the zombies are probably worse then wolves.
Seriously, The Forsaken are not Beacons of Forgiveness, thats just not true.
Then, another quick thing on varian not listening;
Sure, he should listen to Jaina and stuff more, but when you think about it, aren't there a lot more humans who Don't like orcs? Check out kul'tiras, they are on Genocide missions! that is another large chunk of humans that don't like orcs. i bet the majority of other nobles and stuff (corrupt and non corrupt alike) would be ready to kill orcs any day.
Another point on if the alliance should work with the horde; think about it. thats like saying, to defeat the scourge the horde has to work with the scarlet crusade, isn't it? Look, i dont think the scarlet crusade is entirely evil, but they definetly think orcs and stuff are evil and would almost never work with them. True, the horde and alliance have worked together in the past... But so has the scarlet crusade! (Sort of....) go to lights hope chapel. Not as much co operation of course as alliance and horde, but still.
Simply put, Varian may not be starting this war, but maybe he has just realized that we are already in a war. I would definitely have to look into this more, but i think that argument may be right.
....If you would kindly refer to what I said before and after, "orc are orcs" you'd see that that was never the point.
You don't know anything about this subject, do you? Varian IS starting this war. He outright declared it!
Seriously, please don't post to interupt a debate with silly ideas that have nothing to do with what we're discussing, if you can even call it that. More of a one sided debate, with you Varian supporters spewing random facts. Which aren't even really facts.
the thing is most humans are mindless retards that are never going to forget or forgive the orcs and its for this reason alone humans are ignorant to the fact that people can change and this conflict will go on into the future but will fade away after along while
This. Only more directed at Varian. Most humans have forgiven. It just so happens the leader is too ignorant to do so.
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