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Abortion Debate
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Post by
Monday
If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
So children within the first five years aren't people?
I think the reason why you're getting upset at people is because they're taking your words (that a fetus is human, duh) and using that as their argument to why abortion shouldn't occur.
Note that I'm not campaigning for either position. I'm just pointing out things I find absurd.
Post by
Ksero
You completely missed my point. I'll bold it this time.
Its not up to you to decide if the fetus is a person or not, its not up to me either, its up to the mother.
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
If you the cant see the difference then you are seriously deluded.
Holy *!@# you just did it again lol. Your narrow mindedness utter inability to look at things from the opposing side is hilarious.
I'm not saying They can't make their own choices. I'm saying that they can make choices regarding themselves, but
to somebody who considers a fetus as a person then the decision of a third party to abort is not just effecting them. It's not about a personal choice for them, it's about a choice affecting them, and an additional party.
You assume i don't look at the other side, you didn't even read my full response did you?
I completely understand the pro-life side of argument
, I have explained myself, and had HSR and squish explain my point aswell, If you can refute my point then go ahead, but going around saying im ignorant to the other side of argument is well, ignorant.
Post by
Eccentrica
These things have a way of spilling over into the legislative arena. I suppose I am rather defensive, but I have a habit of being that way when people seek to control aspects (or potential aspects) of my life on things which affect (could affect) me intimately.
I don't feel that any aspect of my fertility is anybody's business but my own.
Post by
Gone
You completely missed my point. I'll bold it this time.
Its not up to you to decide if the fetus is a person or not, its not up to me either, its up to the mother.
You say - They cant make they're own choices, I want to control their future
I say - They can make there own choice, its their future, they should have control over it.
If you the cant see the difference then you are seriously deluded.
Holy *!@# you just did it again lol. Your narrow mindedness utter inability to look at things from the opposing side is hilarious.
I'm not saying They can't make their own choices. I'm saying that they can make choices regarding themselves, but
to somebody who considers a fetus as a person then the decision of a third party to abort is not just effecting them. It's not about a personal choice for them, it's about a choice affecting them, and an additional party.
You assume i don't look at the other side, you didn't even read my full response did you?
I completely understand the pro-life side of argument
, I have explained myself, and had HSR and squish explain my point aswell, If you can refute my point then go ahead, but going around saying im ignorant to the other side of argument is well, ignorant.
Well you either don't understand the opposing side, or you're explaining yourself poorly.
Post by
Ksero
If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
So children within the first five years aren't people?
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
@rjya refute my point, or im done responding, if you cant follow what ive layed out then its not worth the time explaining it to you again, ive done it 5 times for $%^&s sake.
Post by
Monday
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Post by
Eccentrica
If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
So children within the first five years aren't people?
Clearly infants and children which do not require being attached to my umbilical cord in order to stay alive are people. That response was childish at best.
Post by
Eccentrica
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
Post by
Monday
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
Post by
Gone
If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
So children within the first five years aren't people?
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Heh, that's always the first argument that comes up. Watch how easy it is to shoot down.
1) You can say the same thing about a baby. It can't survive on it's own once you put it out in the world. Without parents to feed and take care of it a baby would die. They can't fend for themselves either. They represent just as big of an inconvenience to the parents, in fact more so. We still consider babies people.
2) People on life support machines would also die if you put them out into the world. Even if a person is brain dead, we still consider them a person.
3) People with physical and mental disorders who can't take care of themselves.
4) The elderly.
You see where I'm going with this.
I'm not necessarily advocating one side or another, just presenting an argument. But you, sound like an idiot, when you make big grand claims that it should be the mothers choice, set out there like a universal truth, then attempt to talk down to people who argue with it. Especially when the proof you offer can be shot full of holes so easily.
Post by
Ksero
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
thats exactly the point, without it they would die
Post by
Monday
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
thats exactly the point, without it they would die
So they're not people?
Post by
Eccentrica
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
Special equipment is fine. All the special equipment in the world isn't going to bring an 8 week old embryo to term. I repeat, if it specifically must be attached to its mother, it is not a person.
Post by
Eccentrica
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
thats exactly the point, without it they would die
So they're not people?
No, more like parasites actually.
Post by
Monday
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
Special equipment is fine. All the special equipment in the world isn't going to bring an 8 week old embryo to term. I repeat, if it specifically must be attached to its mother, it is not a person.
How do we know that we won't have equipment in the future? Will embryos be people once we have the equipment?
No, more like parasites actually.
I shudder for any children you may have.
Post by
Gone
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
Special equipment is fine. All the special equipment in the world isn't going to bring an 8 week old embryo to term. I repeat, if it specifically must be attached to its mother, it is not a person.
So you're using convenience as criteria to determine if something is a person or not? What kind of degenerate thinks that way? You determine if it's a person first, based on the merits and criteria of what makes a human being, a human being. And then after that you take convenience into account in deference to the findings.
If we used convenience as criteria in the determination there is too much room for corruption. People could just as easily declare the elderly or the handicapped "non human".
Post by
Ksero
If it can't survive outside my body it is not a person.
So children within the first five years aren't people?
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Heh, that's always the first argument that comes up. Watch how easy it is to shoot down.
1) You can say the same thing about a baby. It can't survive on it's own once you put it out in the world. Without parents to feed and take care of it a baby would die. They can't fend for themselves either. They represent just as big of an inconvenience to the parents, in fact more so. We still consider babies people.
2) People on life support machines would also die if you put them out into the world. Even if a person is brain dead, we still consider them a person.
3) People with physical and mental disorders who can't take care of themselves.
4) The elderly.
You see where I'm going with this.
I'm not necessarily advocating one side or another, just presenting an argument. But you, sound like an idiot, when you make big grand claims that it should be the mothers choice, set out there like a universal truth, then attempt to talk down to people who argue with it. Especially when the proof you offer can be shot full of holes so easily.
What you dont seem to understand is that a fetus does not have the pysiological capabilities to sutain itself
1) babies can eat and breathe by themselves, with the exception of SIDS, they dont die for just being in the world, as a fetus would.
2)Yep, once you are a person there is no going back, dont see how this relates to what i said at all
3) irrelevant
4) lol wut
i didnt offer any proof of anything, all i said was a fetus dies out of the womb without medical care, you went on to stretch my point Reducto ad absurdum, which means you took my premise, blew it way out of proportion then made fun the stupid ideas "I" came up with. no longer responding to you, completely disrespectful.
Post by
Ksero
So you're using convenience as criteria to determine if something is a person or not? What kind of degenerate thinks that way? You determine if it's a person first, based on the merits and criteria of what makes a human being, a human being. And then after that you take convenience into account in deference to the findings.
If we used convenience as criteria in the determination there is too much room for corruption. People could just as easily declare the elderly or the handicapped "non human".
That has nothing to do with convenience, it has everything to do with the physiological state of a fetus at 8 weeks.
Post by
Monday
2)Yep, once you are a person there is no going back, dont see how this relates to what i said at all
Why? I'm curious as to your thought process here.
Edit: That has nothing to do with convenience, it has everything to do with the physiological state of a fetus at 8 weeks.
So what of extremely early born babies, then, as it was originally referring to? They require specialized equipment to survive and are certainly not in the physical shape to be in the world in their own right.
Post by
Eccentrica
the point is you take a fetus outside of the womb it dies within minutes without medical care, it is not a fully developed human, it is not ready to by put into the world, your point is moot.
Babies also tend to do the same thing.
Babies can be cared for and fed by anyone. Within the first several weeks embryos can only be cared for and fed by the mother.
What of babies that are delivered extremely early? They require special equipment to survive.
Special equipment is fine. All the special equipment in the world isn't going to bring an 8 week old embryo to term. I repeat, if it specifically must be attached to its mother, it is not a person.
So you're using convenience as criteria to determine if something is a person or not? What kind of degenerate thinks that way? You determine if it's a person first, based on the merits and criteria of what makes a human being, a human being. And then after that you take convenience into account in deference to the findings.
If we used convenience as criteria in the determination there is too much room for corruption. People could just as easily declare the elderly or the handicapped "non human".
You are being intentionally obtuse.
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