[3.3] Intro to Death Knight Tanking

Post by karlusdavius

Hey there, instead of starting a new thread i thought i would post up here. Im now a 4 day old level 80 Frost Tank, Tenyr.
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Considering i was starting out in heroics, i felt that DK's take a lot of damage without having a lot of mitigation at the start, therefor my i decided to spec

7/54/10.

Personally i found it to be great for starting heroics as the decreased CD on Death Grip and DnD make righting the !@#$ ups i made pretty simple.
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Now last night, i was amazed to find myself OT in naxx 10. Forgetting i had this build set up for heroics and mainly trash tanking, i struggled on threat significantly. Now i know that part of it is/was my gear however, im pretty sure 75% of it was the spec and glyph choice.

Therefor im here asking for alittle bit of advice and guidance.
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13/51/7 Is what i thinking of going for.

My understanding is that Rune Strike gives massive threat for little RP cost. Therefor this build, while my gear is being upgraded, is based around RP generation in order to be able to use Rune Strike while not gimping my rotation and allowing me to use Frost Strike when needed.
do i take the Howling Blast Glyph for trash/AoE? or do i go with Obliterate? Dark Command?

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My Single Target Rotation
IT>PS>HS>OB>HS>FS
OB>OB>OB>FS

AOE Rotation
DnD>HB>BB>FS

Within my single target rotation, does Obliterate rate higher than Frost Strike? obviously with this build i'm going to be building RP very quickly.
With my AOE Rotation, i always find im waiting for all my Runes to come off CD, this make me very nervous! is that the right rotation?

In terms of Trinkets, is it worth me going for the greatness card?

So there it is. Any Suggestions or questions you have feel free to ask. Thanks for the help in advance!

Edit: the 13/51/7 build is aimed at single target TPS

Post by Eleazer

First off how are you using Heart Strike if you aren't specced into it, but that is beside the point.

Let's start with spec, it's not bad, but you are hurting yourself on some threat generation. Morbidity is a blood/unholy tanking choice not used nor necessary for frost. Epidemic is a waste as you will be using Howling Blast often enough where it won't be necessary. Scent of Blood is nice but not necessary. 12/54/5 is my preferred tanking spec I like Acclimation However I only spec that way if I know I am raiding with an enhance shaman otherwise I am a little crazy and go with 10/56/5 with 3 in Bladed armor and only one point in Chill of the Grave so that I can get Imp Icy Talons.

Now for Glyphs, for tanking purposes Glyph of the Howling Blast is essential if only to reapply your FF, it's also your best threat generator outside of Rune Strike and DnD. Glyph of Howling Blast/Obliterate/Rune Strike are the preferred Frost tanking glyphs though I like to flip Rune out and Go with Frost, but I am a damage fiend so it's a preference thing.

As for rotation, I am against PS in the rotation though I understand it's usage.

Single target you can go IT/PS/OB/BS/BS/FS and simply use RS whenever it's up most of us macro RS into every attack so it's used all the time for added threat. You would toss in Howling Blast during Rime Procs, the main reason I don't like this is I now have to use IT and HB adding one more key stroke.

My single and aoe rotations are simpler and Nystali hates me for it, but it works for most situations.

Single Target: HB/OB/BS/BS/FS/FS - I have macro'd RS so I only use FS if there is available runic power

AOE Target: HB/OB/BS/BB/ FS - Again RS is macro'd and FS is used if there is available runic power.

Having said this on targets where I will be moving alot I use a rotation more like this

HB or IT/PS/OB/BS/BS/FS - Macro'd RS but FS if I can. HB whenever Rime procs

Trinkets - Darkmoon Card:Greatness is a DPS trinket - go with avoidance or defense trinkets so you can spend your gem spots and your enchants on threat generation At least that's the way I go.

Your single Target TPS will be fine, if you can keep your rotation going. Generally threat is an issue that is when you are way outgeared by your dps, and they don't allow you to drop dnd and HB

Post by karlusdavius

First off how are you using Heart Strike if you aren't specced into it, but that is beside the point.

Blood Strike, lol.

Epidemic is a waste as you will be using Howling Blast often enough where it won't be necessary.

My general Idea behind this was to stay away from IT and PS as much as possible. When it comes to HB, i don't really use it on Single target since i Spam OB, FS and BS coupled with RS if its up. It allows my main big hitters to be used more often. I only use IT and PS when the diseases drop off. The longer they take to drop off, the better?

Glyph of Howling Blast/Obliterate/Rune Strike are the preferred Frost tanking glyphs though I like to flip Rune out and Go with Frost, but I am a damage fiend so it's a preference thing.

I like having a frost strike up early incase of a KM proc. Considering i'm struggling keeping aggro with guildies who are way more geared than me, I would consider FS Spamming a good thing since KM proc's almost always. This is where i need advice

Is it worth taking PS out of my rotation all together?

Post by Zxian

As a follow-up to my other thread on gear upgrades, I was wondering if someone could comment on the best enchant I could get if I were to upgrade my cloak to the Platinum Mesh Cloak. Would Titanweave still be the best choice between it, 16agi, and 225 armor?

Post by Nystali

I think Titanweave only because even if you are over cap it allows for upgrades to have less defense than what you just replaced. Agility would be my next option as it adds a little dodge and armor, but titanweave adds a little dodge and parry.

Post by Eleazer

My general Idea behind this was to stay away from IT and PS as much as possible. When it comes to HB, i don't really use it on Single target since i Spam OB, FS and BS coupled with RS if its up. It allows my main big hitters to be used more often. I only use IT and PS when the diseases drop off. The longer they take to drop off, the better?

Glyph of Howling Blast/Obliterate/Rune Strike are the preferred Frost tanking glyphs though I like to flip Rune out and Go with Frost, but I am a damage fiend so it's a preference thing.

I like having a frost strike up early incase of a KM proc. Considering i'm struggling keeping aggro with guildies who are way more geared than me, I would consider FS Spamming a good thing since KM proc's almost always. This is where i need advice

Is it worth taking PS out of my rotation all together?

First off, HB is a bigger hitter when it procs than OB is on a standard hit, HB just crits less often and an OB crit is higher than HB on a crit by crit basis. Secondly you will only use HB every 8-10 seconds, is an added dps benefit that would be better. Plus I may be wrong but OB has a lower threat generation than IT or HB, but I would have to check the numbers. In terms of usage, while tanking my numbers on single target, I use HB every Rime proc or if my disease is wearing down.

PS is up to you, some takes like it because it gives additional tick threat instead of just the burst numbers that we typically rely on.Nystali can correct me if I am wrong, but PS is a nice tick, but not necessary in tanking as frost.

You seem to be trying to dps a target by spamming OB/BS which is okay, but threat seems to be your issue. HB over IT is a given it hits harder, less often allowing you to throw out more OB's and generates great threat on single and multiple pulls. Personally I use HB like Lynri uses Blood Tab, I abuse it every time it's up especially if I am kiting or have to move with a target.

Finally, saving up for a proc is a bad idea when tanking especially when dealing with high dps rollers. We don't have Vigilance like a warrior does where they can transfer threat to them, so pumping out as much threat as possible as quickly as possible is best advised. Saving Frost Strike is nice, but if TPS is your issue than saving an HB or FS is a bad idea. Typically, I want my dps to blow things up quickly so I frontload and overuse HB/FS/ with less reliance on the weaker hitting BS.

Post by Nystali

To karlusdavius:
I'd use the HB glyph only because it makes for super simple aoe rotations. If you do pick up that glyph, then epidemic becomes almost useless. I actually like to run with runic power mastery only because my build, which is similar to yours, generate a lot of runic power and it prevents me from overflowing. But those points are completely free to put where you want.

As for the Rune Strike glyph. I actually don't agree with Lynri as to how powerful it is and I don't run with it. I'd rather have my Obliterate buffed constantly vs increase crit chance. I find Obliterate generates enough threat to not worry about its threat coefficent vs other abilities. So I run with HB, OB, and FS glyphs.

I do usually start my pulling rotations with a PS still. Might give me a extra boost to threat early on in the fight, but its not something I worry about. I don't parse threat production, I just watch my bar on omen and how big a lead I have. But after that first rotation, I'll just use HB to refresh frost fever and use that for the rest of a fight.

My single target pull:
IT->PS->OB->BS->BS->FS till refreshed.
OB->OB->OB->FS till refreshed.

Afterwards:
HB->OB->BS->BS->FS till refreshed. (If Rime procced recently, HB is an OB)
OB->OB->OB->FS till refreshed.

I don't have rune strike macro's, but I do hit it every time it procs. I just like to be more of a manual player.

Group pulls are insanely easy after you get them grouped:
HB->BB->BB->OB (hoping for Rime proc)->FS till refreshed.
or
DnD->HB->BB->FS till refreshed.
HB->BB->BB->OB->FS till refreshed. (Repeat this part only afterwards)

Yes, you will be using up these runes very fast and waiting on them. The beauty of relying more on HB than DnD to start pulls is that you can have Emp Rune Weapon and DnD off cooldown, ready for emergencies. I generally leave the first target early to start off on the next target in the group, whether that be back to using the runes, or just using some runic power on FS.

Priorities:
If Killing Machine procs, use FS on single target or HB on group.
If Rime procs, use HB.
Always use RS when it procs, either through a macro or manually.

I usually use my runes first, get them on cooldown and start using my runic power, unless Killing Machine procs then I throw in a quick FS. Thankfully OB doesn't eat a KM proc so its ok if you finish off those last two runes before you noticed the proc.

I don't think the greatness card is that useful for tanking. I'd go for the badge dodge trinket soon to replace your seal of the pantheon.

Post by karlusdavius

Ok another question,

Why is it people cancel the freezing fog buff we get from rime? Do i need to do that considering my RP generation will be pretty dam high with my spec?

think ill roll with HB, Ob and FS then. thanks for the help!

Post by Nystali

People cancel the Rime buff? I've actually got no idea what they're doing if that's true.

Basically the freezing fog buff is just an swirly animation to try and help notify you that you have a proc to use. It goes away when you use the free HB, so maybe the combat log says that so-and-so removes it on use.

Post by Eleazer

Lol, Thank you , Nystali, you said what I was trying to say except much clearer. lol, it will amaze you how fast your runes get used up. Oh, and I might as well admit that I have started to go away from pulling with taunt Nystali, and on bosses I have added PS into my beginning rotation. I still refuse to use it on most rotations, but it has added a nice additional threat bonus at the start of the fight. So my starting boss rotation is

HB/PS/OB/BS/BS/FS/BT
OB/OB/OB/FS until runes are refreshed

Nystali got a question for you. Have you seen an increase in Frost Tanks on your server? I see a majority of unholy tanks, very few blood, and am now seeing an increase in frost due to the simplistic rotation that Howling Blast provides, plus it's just so much more fun lol.

Karlus, what do you mean by canceling Rime isn't it a self proc?

Post by Nystali

I've seen far fewer Unholy tanks recently for whatever reason. Blood tanks are actually the suprise for me. I see them more often than I would have thought. I guess many people are just enchanted by "blood". In my circle of friends though, Frost is and has been the dominant spec only because they generally model after me. Like me though, its alts for them, not mains.

Post by karlusdavius

They cancel it because it has already refreshed HB. Casting HB with Rime proc doesn't give RP. Casting HB without the proc does.

Post by Nystali

Then they're being kinda stupid... you get free dps and produce just as much RP with an Obliterate instead.

OB generates just as much RP as a HB. What they are basically doing is:

HB->OB->BS->BS

as opposed to:

HB(free)->OB->OB->BS->BS

Same number of runes used = same runic power (barring procs from Scent of Blood) but more dps/threat from free HB.

Post by 334662

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by karlusdavius

False! Please please read up before posting something like this as fact...

I did read up. That's what i read up and posted back here. So stop going emo ffs

Post by 334662

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by karlusdavius

Cancelling Freezing Fog forces Howling Blast to use runes. A free Howling Blast does not generate the 15 Runic Power one would get from casting Howling Blast with runes. Using the free Howling Blast leaves you with less RP and 2 runes to use up. Since Howling Blast is on a cooldown, these leftover runes cannot be used as efficiently. An Icy Touch may be worthwhile, but an extra Plague Strike usually is not.

A used Freezing Fog proc will cause people to break from their rotations. Some people cannot or do not want to change their rotations, so they use the cancel macro to simplify their ability usage.

Source: Post No. 31

Heck, there's even an addon for it

Shameless self plug:

Grab ReasonRime from my sig. It will '/cancelaura Freezing Fog' only if you don't have the runes to cast Howling Blast (it takes Death runes into account). This lets you get the RP from HB if you have the runes, and lets you get the free-cast if you don't.

Source: Post No.33

Post by 334662

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by karlusdavius

Yeh, fine. Stop going emo about it.

Back on topic. Nystall, the build and glyph choice seem to really be working out. Im now managing to keep a high amount of threat from ulduar 25 geared people for prolonged periods of time thanks to the RP generation im getting!

thanks!

Post by 257584

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

[3.3] Intro to Death Knight Tanking

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