Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.

发布者 Paolo

Welcome, and stick around. I think you just made about a dozen friends.

发布者 Squishalot

Hi; Sorry for the late post/thread necro/beating the dead horse, but I couldn't sit well with this. I had to create a WoWhead account just to throw my 2cp in. I originally came here for advice on my disc priest leveling (As I loved seeing them heal my paladin), but this thread caught my eye.

Welcome aboard. Just don't come onto the Paladin forums claiming MP5 > Int - people are probably still a bit sensitive.

Wrath has bred a new kind of Paladin: A bad one. Lured by the revamped specs, we're seeing more and more people play paladins, and more people = more bad players.

Wrath bred the FOTM Retardin. LFD bred the bad tanks, in order to skip the DPS queues. Just to be clear.

(edit: snipped out stuff so as to avoid getting into arguments about 'realistic scenarios' and so forth.)

Even in Heroics, you can still turn around, and let mobs attack you from behind for a few to build up some damage to have it healed, then returned to you. Ontop of that, if you feel like you have mana problems, you CAN do 2/2 SA, as nothing is stopping you from, y'know, not following the cookie cutter spec.

I don't necessarily expect you to have read the whole thread, but did you even read past the title? It's a non-issue in heroics. In fact, it's even stated right there on the third line of the opening post.

All in all, my apologies for reviving this topic, but it needed to be said.

What, that taking extra damage > asking the priest not to cast a shield? How is it that it needed to be said? Or is this a HPS meter-watching thing? Justify to me how shielding and taking additional damage above and beyond that to be healed, is better than just taking the initial damage and healing it? You're wasting an extra GCD, and if all you're doing is shielding for the procs, you can just as easily shield someone else.

The conclusion of the opening post was:

1) MTs shouldn't be complaining
2) (was scrubbed out)
3) If you have a backup tank running at #2 on the threat meter, chances are that they're going to be rage/mana starved, so cut them some slack.
4) Low level paladins don't have the mana recovery tools that they have at L80, so cut them some slack.

Your response to (3) is absurd, and you haven't responded at all to (4), which is the most recent cause of complaints by a Paladin to a Priest that prompted this thread in the first place.

I certainly haven't appeared to have made many friends on the Priest forum. But it still beggars belief how so many people are locked into a single mindset, and refuse to adapt for even the simplest thing. You want someone in a dungeon to change their spec, to save you the hassle of casting a heal instead of a shield?

发布者 dhampir1989

The conclusion of the opening post was:
...
3) If you have a backup tank running at #2 on the threat meter, chances are that they're going to be rage/mana starved, so cut them some slack.

And we've concluded any tank doing that deserves mana/rage starvation, as there is no reason for them to, in a situation where it can happen.

You want someone in a dungeon to change their spec, to save you the hassle of casting a heal instead of a shield?

Its a non-issue in dungeons? Or isnt it?

You seem to flip-flop an awful lot.

In raids, a shield isnt just a shield, and a heal isnt just a heal. Losing 3 Grace on the MT can be catastrophic. Your insistence on bad OT practices just wiped the raid. Grats.

发布者 Squishalot

And we've concluded any tank doing that deserves mana/rage starvation, as there is no reason for them to, in a situation where it can happen.

No we haven't, we've concluded that the practice isn't widely used these days. How does a tank 'deserve' mana starvation if they're just doing what their raid leader tells them to do?

Its a non-issue in dungeons? Or isnt it?

Direct response to the paragraph in which it was highlighted. Context fail.

~~In raids~~ As Discipline, a shield isnt just a shield, and a heal isnt just a heal. Losing 3 Grace on the MT can be catastrophic. Your insistence on bad OT practices just wiped the raid. Grats.

Fixed.

Which is why I've been suggesting all the while that the Disc Priest should be on someone else, but for whatever reason, all of you people seem to think that your healing assignments are fixed and unchangeable. And if you're a Holy Priest, your argument means squat.

发布者 karlusdavius

发布者 Paolo

WTB thread lock OMG.

发布者 Squishalot

Your arguments are now horrifically conflicting. Please, go back to the paladin forum. We have disproved everything that was said and considering it was based on a test which was wrong, i think you should now stop.

No paladin should ever have mana troubles in any situation.

Which arguments? You mean the one when I was responding to a comment about asking a tank to change his talent spec in heroics?

Disprove the one about low level paladins and mana recovery? *cough* And only one aspect was based on the test which was wrong, so if you think that AoE threat is the whole 'problem', then you're missing the point.

Paolo - go ahead and ask for a lock. I'm getting tired of trying to explain the point to people who are obviously unwilling to be team players and adjust what they do if it's being called for. Remind me to flame the next Priest who asks the question on the Paladin forums and troll them back here.

发布者 Paolo

Hoping to turn this into a sticky for the Priest forums...Since you're unlikely to get this actually stickied, as per your original post, you can at least continue to write long defenses of your (very narrow) point to keep this on page 1.

Please please please please just stop. If you've failed to convince, there is only one person to blame. Not an entire class, lol.

发布者 265062

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

发布者 Squishalot

What, stop, just so you can get the last say?

I've dropped this topic half a dozen times, only for someone else to come along and pick it up and criticise it (on false premises, like people who keep bringing up tanking heroics). I'm allowed to respond to criticism, no?

Karlus doesn't even get the point that he's thrashing a dead point - it's so dead, it's even been struck through on the front page. He's practically arguing that "since 1+1 =/= 3, all maths must be wrong". Strawman ftw.

Yes, I wanted to make a sticky to highlight the fact that shields are a non-issue in MT scenarios, and that there exist limited cases where it will be an issue. I wanted this to be something that could be worked on together, since Priests are complaining that Paladins are complaining - it's a two-class issue.

But you and everyone else have kept saying "no, one part is wrong, therefore it's all wrong, rofl" and flamed the hell out of this thread. I haven't seen a shred of math that says that shields don't cause mana problems at low levels. It's a strawman argument and it's, pardon my language, full of crap.

Anyway, I've already asked for a lock, because I'm tired of arguing with people who can't seem to discuss things productively. It was always just a maths question, and it's rebuttable with math. How hard can it be for you guys to put numbers on a page?

发布者 Squishalot

You might want to change your post to include Divine Aegis in your mana cost calculation. (*disclamer: I am not claiming my math(s) to be correct either)
Example on X amount healed with 40% crit from a disc priest
60% noncrit
40 % crit * 1.5 = 60%
Divine Aegis = 30% of crit value or 18%
The crit and non crit healing are equal, Divine Aegis = 9%

So with a 5K shield you get 5K * 0.91 = 4550 * 0.05 = 227 mana vs 110 mana from rapture or
117 mana/15 seconds or 39 mana/5.

So your post boils down to 7 pages of people ... at you due to how much you value 39 mana/5.

Yay, math! <3

How do you figure Divine Aegis = 9%? On average 9% of a heal size, you mean?

In the event of an off-tanking paladin, it won't be a Disc priest making up the healing, because (as highlighted by dhampir) they won't want to lose Grace on the MT.

In the case of a low level paladin, even after you scale everything down, any Mp5 is good. Paladins can change their tactics to conserve mana, at the expense of threat, but is that really ideal?

Whats next a suggestion for a sticky on the Shammy's forum about why Paly's don't like Elemental Warding?

Yes, we don't like it. It's not fair that a non tanking class gets a damage reduction ability that we can't have. *cough*

I suggest you make a sticky on the Paly forums about why Paly's should not complain about Priest Shields.

No paladins come onto the forum complaining about Priest Shields, only Priests. So what's the point? At the moment, if you have a fail tank, the onus is on the party members to school him, or to refer him to a place he can educate himself to learn. I wouldn't have expected a Priest to closely follow the stickies in a Paladin forum, generally speaking.

发布者 karlusdavius

You don't need maths in arguments. You don't play the game and calculate each spell and pick the highest one, do you? no.

I haven't trashed this thread at all, i merely stated that block was not a factor in threat gen or mana regen from shielding, since it still works. Therefore, threat gen and mana regen due to shielding was a moot point.

Please feel free to point out my strawman. Because all of what i said is true. or are you planning on dis proving that also?

Were not paladins. We don't just troll for no reason like you do.

In the event of an off-tanking paladin, it won't be a Disc priest making up the healing, because (as highlighted by dhampir) they won't want to lose Grace on the MT.

We can and will still shield the OT

发布者 OscarDivine

last word. Just sayin'.

发布者 SlowSide

发布者 dhampir1989

For DA to create a 5k sheild would take almost 17,000 from a crit heal.

发布者 ande9249

okay... I have seen a GH crit up to 16K on my Disc Priest....moot point however since NO DISC PRIEST WOULD USE GH UNLESS THE TARGET WAS DAMAGED! thus gving mana to the paly, and IF the paly is taking that much damage, it will keep coming and pop that little shield in no time (and yes if i am healing 17K with a GH, then 5K is a small shield)

发布者 SlowSide

For DA to create a 5k sheild would take almost 17,000 from a crit heal.

Your point ? Please Please Please point out where I said that couldn't / wouldn't happen... I'll wait...

Oh thats right, I NEVER said it wasn't possible.

1) If all 3 ticks crit you can leave a 5K DA, mine will crit for 5500-5800 depending on buffs in 5 mans. So I know it is possible, hence me NEVER saying it wasn't.

2) A 17K crit from a single GH is hopeful, I normally get 10-12 as Disco, that is with my current 2300 SP, maybe with better gear & 25 man buffs it is attainable.

If you bothered to READ what I was replying to it was to fix his math that implied either DA somehow restores mana or that a 5K DA can come from a 4250 heal.

Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.

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