Vindication vs. Demoralizing Shout

发布者 138081

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发布者 358147

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发布者 Archibolt

According to the Vindication comments, it is equal to Imp Demo shout and Curse of Weakness. The only difference is that Vindication is a proc from our attacks, so you can consider it a passive Debuff.

The downside is that the paly needs to sacrifice 2 talent points, and the fact that Vindication doesn't have a 100% proc chance, which probably means that we can keep it up on a single target, but we'll have a hard time keeping it up on more than 3 targets (assuming near 100% proc chance from HotR - 10sec duration from a 6 sec CD spell)

Bottom line is that Vindication wins on single target fights - it also frees a GCD from a warrior/lock.
On bigger pull, Demo Shout wins hands down.

发布者 Quest

Can somebody explain to me how a reduction of 46 attack power for 10 seconds even comes close to 410 for 30 seconds?

What you need to start defaulting on is this: Tooltips are the bane of Blizzard. They simply dont have a good way to keep them all accurate, so we get confusing like this. Never trust the tooltips alone!

发布者 Boeck

As has been said, it scales with our level. You'll find that the other classes would really like our AP debuff. Yes, we have to put 2 talent points in it, but applying it just requires auto-attacking (or other moves, iirc Avenger's has a 100% chance to apply it). Warriors and Druids have to spend more talent points to get the same effect and also have to use a GCD to apply. And poor DKs just get left in the cold.

What you need to start defaulting on is this: Tooltips are the bane of Blizzard. They simply dont have a good way to keep them all accurate, so we get confusing like this. Never trust the tooltips alone!

It doesn't help when they don't even keep the same convention for all of them. Some are dynamic (will show the correct damage/effect/etc) and others aren't.

发布者 Quest

Yes, they sort of screwed up when it comes to tooltips. They should be simply calling API information and reflecting them, but it seems like half of them are hand written.

发布者 328121

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发布者 138081

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发布者 Squishalot

And poor DKs just get left in the cold.

I find it strange that 3 of the tank classes can put up that debuff, but not DK's.

Because they're learning slowly. Paladins didn't always have Vindication in its current form, we had a much more powerful PvP breaking ability, and this was seen as the concession to make it up to us.

发布者 Sgtpain

I get "Immune'' from alot of bosses, I am assume it's coming from vindication.

In a PvE standpoint, as already stated, it's not 100%, so it's not up constantly. In a PvP situation, Shout will pull players out of stealth and sometimes I find I went almost an entire round with someone and it never procced. Weak sauce.

发布者 328121

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发布者 Boeck

Pretty much what Harmacy said. Bosses are not immune to the current Vindication. They were immune to the old one. Once you start tanking a boss, it will be up. The only times I've seen it fall off of raid bosses is due to the nature of the encounter (such as Icehowl's Massive Charge) where any of other debuffs would fall off also. I suppose it might also fall off a bit if you have next to no hit which can be easy to do with T9 gear.

发布者 hashmel

improved AP reductions aren't needed on trash and on single targets several classes/specs can apply it with more ease than tanks

AP reduction order of responsibility

ret: doesn't use a GCD, can easily spec with 2 of the 8 leftover talent points
prot pally: doesn't use a GCD can easily spec into it while reaching crusade
affliction: 1 GCD every 2 minutes, can easily spare 2 talent points but sacrifices using curse of agony or doom
fury: 1 GCD every 30 seconds, it's in their main tree allowing them to invest in it while descending the tree
arms: 1 GCD every 30 seconds, can invest in imp demo shout while descending to commanding presence without much sacrifice
prot warrior: 1 GCD every 30 seconds, must sacrifice deep wounds
bear: 1 GCD every 30 seconds, must sacrifice NS+MS or KOTJ+BI/SA/NI

发布者 Brique

ret: doesn't use a GCD, can easily spec with 2 of the 8 leftover talent points

It'd mean not going for Divine Sacrifice. Depends on your raid composition in the end, but in ours we run short on survivability cooldowns.

发布者 hashmel

if a ret opts for DS over vindication i'm all for it, just go down the list to your next AP reducing class/spec but if they don't spec DS there's no reason in the world (of warcraft) not to have vindication

if you're limited on resources and need both DS and an imp AP reduction then i see no reason not to have the ret pally go DS while the tank goes with imp AP, not like a warrior, druid, lock, or prot pally (who'd lose aggro if they bubbled or die from popping DS without bubbling) could DS instead

发布者 328121

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发布者 hashmel

ik, but as not all players will use a 0/53/18 build i opted for words like "may" "can" and "preferred"

suppose i should've included prot pallies as a 3rd or even 2nd priority instead of 4th for an imp AP reduction though as it did slip my mind CoW means not using CoA or CoD for an affliction lock

发布者 blademeld

Where are holy paladins on the list lol?

发布者 hashmel

lol i love ya blademeld

发布者 324402

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Vindication vs. Demoralizing Shout

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