The Horde needs Thrall, and this is why..

发布者 taurenmoo812

Yes, this is another Thrall thread. Yes, this is debating the change happening in cataclysm. Yes, I already have a similar thread as this (although the heading is more based on why I think blizzard made a mistake). But because that thread has derailed so much from how it started, I thought it was worth going from skratch and making the point I've wanted to make on it.

(and since this might bring a lot of trolling and flaming, I'll not bother asking anyone not to, because it doesn't seem to change that fact).

Ok. I was thinking of a post made a while ago someone made, how he felt the way democracy worked in warcraft, the state of play in how both factions operate. There was some solid truth to this. It was said that the alliance acted upon a governing group of indevigual races with there own laws and ideals, who were pretty much self sustaining on those principles, where as the horde operated on a different level of kingship (some calling it a dictatorship, which isn't really the case) where one ruler governs all races under his rule.

This is a fact of how it works, as well the alliance has been for years without a central figure, each race worked under its own laws and government, well remaining allies to other races of the alliance, well the horde has always had a central single leader to govern it, for all races. Although each horde race has its own respected leader, the law is only passed and inforced by its figurehead, the warchief.

I won't drag the point of how it works in regards to the alliance, but as it stands, the alliance having varian wrynn as a figurehead has never needed such a leader. It has supported itself without him being there for a long time, and well Jaina was something of a leader in regards to hyjal, she has never had that position as an overal leader of the alliance forces.

Now. Coming to Thrall, the fact of why the alliance have not needed one like Varian to sustain itself is because of, as I say, each of the alliance races governing bodies being self sustaining, well with the horde, the horde races are those who would be regarded as 'seeking survival', the orcs first of course, then the darkspear trolls, then the tauren, the forsaken of course with, and the blood elves, all these races looking to survive somehow where there cultures and people were dying or needing aid to sustain itself. That is what the horde gave to each of them as a whole (and the reason I like the horde so much).

But of course, each race of the horde brought with it a rogue element that would be questionable to most, the orcs bloodlust for battle, the trolls voodoo and cannibalism, also cannibalism and dark magics of the forsaken, and the fel magics of the blood elves. And under Thralls leadership, each race was able to showhow adapt themselves to pushing aside some of these dark elements (the forsaken being least among those that have).

Despite the darker elements of the horde, it is because of Thralls leadership that these races, rather then embrasing it, were able to find something beyond it. Trolls who claim to hate all other races ended up making companionship and friendship with orcs and tauren, forsaken were able to find cause for fighting as warriors rather then ravagering undead, the orcs were able to regain there spirital belief, and even blood elves were able to redeem themselves for past sins (sunwell).

The fact is, Thrall isn't just the leader of the orcs, much like you would have tyrande just the leader of the night elves or Varian just the leader of the humans (he governed the alliance forces in northrend, but is not the alliances defacto leader). Thrall brought together races that would probably never have found an allegence with others, his guidence gave them cause to fight when they were desperate to just survive, he faught to give not just his own people, but all those under his banner the chance to survive. Under Thrall and because of him, cities were build, honor and dignity was given back to the orcs, the trolls were given salvation and learned honor, tauren were saved from extinction, and even the forsaken were given a chance to learn a code of honor they badly lacked.

And this is because of Thrall. People sometimes argue how they believe doomhammer was the better warchief, but I tend to disagree with this. When it came to it, despite Orgrims honorable intentions, all he was able to do was to try and stear an out of control train to its inevitable end. The horde then was still an invading army lead by bloodlust and power, and even doomhammer couldn't stop what was to come. He couldn't change what the horde had become.. But Thrall was able to, as I've discribed.

This is why I am so defensive of Thrall. This is why when someone questions what he's able to do as warchief, I have to correct those assumptions or allegations. And I would like to remind people of these facts, since many seems to forget them or let them slip by. Its easy to do of course, given the poor writers in wow having not done anything with him like they did in earlier warcrafts (despite him being the most active leader of either faction).

Just on a closing note. The forsaken event in wotlk, well some like to use this as a scapegoat to criticize Thralls leadership, being as I've described he is the hordes leader and so responsible for all races of the horde, I for one disagree to this. What it actully shows, is that Thrall puts his faith in his allies as an act of trust, despite him ruling all races under his law he gives respect to his allies enough not to clamp an iron fist down on them. Some might see this as a soft tactic, but if anything it shows that he isn't a dictator and rather someone who rules with wisdom instead of fear.
The alliance of course will always blame the horde for the wrath gate, simply because varian wrynn said it so, but scapegoats are always present when wanting to overlook all the facts.

发布者 Monday

In my opinion, which is kinda mentioned in this thread, is that the Horde needs Thrall because it they have had him as warchief for a long period of time, and when a change like that ocmes quickly it brings chaos, it is shown time and again in real life.

发布者 Adamsm

Just on a closing note. The forsaken event in wotlk, well some like to use this as a scapegoat to criticize Thralls leadership, being as I've described he is the hordes leader and so responsible for all races of the horde, I for one disagree to this. What it actully shows, is that Thrall puts his faith in his allies as an act of trust, despite him ruling all races under his law he gives respect to his allies enough not to clamp an iron fist down on them. Some might see this as a soft tactic, but if anything it shows that he isn't a dictator and rather someone who rules with wisdom instead of fear.You can't sweep it aside though: The Forsaken, a race that only joined the Horde out of 'protection', had no loyalty to the Horde; after all, the power base was on the other continent, and they kept their true work: the creation of the poisons and plagues that lead up to the Blight hidden from the rest of the Horde.

But, and here's what should have thrown up warning sign's right off the back: The Forsaken were brought into the Horde by the Grimtotems... warning sign one. Warning sign two should have been the deaths and poisoning rumours floating around Azeroth. Warning sign three should have been the Blood Elves themselves; a sign that they were attempting to build up their forces on the Eastern Kingdoms against the Alliance; and I'm sure a few Elves would have been able to tell Thrall what Sylvanas did to create her kingdom.. which should have been warning sign number 4.

I get it Tauren, I do... but really, the fact that Thrall allowed the Forsaken to be off by themselves, instead of at least having a few watchers in the Undercity, might have kept the Wrathgate from happening in the first place, and his friend and brother in arms Varok wouldn't have lost his son to the treachery of the Undead.

I agree with you about the Orcs, the Trolls and the Tauren... but Thrall wasn't thinking on a large scale; had Doomhammer been alive in current times, he would have gotten Thrall to post watchers: Doomhammer had a different Horde, but it was a smarter Horde in all honesty, and had to have been with the amount of betrayal and back stabbing that formed it.

I know this is going to be seen as anti-Thrall and I turn on my anti-flame shield now... but Thrall is 'young' when it comes to leadership: He was trained to be a commander not a Warchief/King whatever you want to call it. From the time of Lord of the Clans to the start of the Third War, the most Thrall ever dealt with was the straight forwardness of the orcs; no real back stabbing, none of the things you would see in a human court... which is a disadvantage when going up against Sylvanas; between the Humans and the High Elves, she's skilled at the lying game.

The Third War Thrall gets the Trolls and the Tauren... which are similar to the Orcs so that doesn't really help him expand on his own; he was semi-naive when dealing with this new race for the Undead.

I wouldn't say any of the Alliance leaders would have done better... but, unlike Thrall; Varian, Jaina(2nd hand knowlegdge), Magni were part of the hot beds of the original Grand Alliance, and they saw the betrayal of an ally; Alterac, and the splintering of the Alliance of the time. It's possible that an Alliance race could have been responsible for the Wrathgate.. but it would have been harder due to the systems they have in place to watch their 'allies'.

发布者 taurenmoo812

发布者 Adamsm

I agree with you about the Orcs, the Trolls and the Tauren... but Thrall wasn't thinking on a large scale; had Doomhammer been alive in current times, he would have gotten Thrall to post watchers: Doomhammer had a different Horde, but it was a smarter Horde in all honesty, and had to have been with the amount of betrayal and back stabbing that formed it.

Was it though?
Consider it for a moment, isn't the betrayal of gul'dan almost the same as the betrayal of the forsaken? Would you ever question Orgrims leadership as warchief in letting Gul'dan live on after he killed the shadow counsil? He underestimated Gul'dan, and as such it cost him the conquest.

No it isn't: Gul'dan only killed his own clan and Cho'galls. Yes, they lost the War... but at least they didn't murder their own people with a substance that literally melted the flesh from their bones... Yes, Doomhammer screwed up leaving them alive... but, without them, he would never have had the Ogre-magi and the first generation Death Knights.

发布者 HiVolt

While I agree with the majority of this post, there is one note that I have to disagree with:

People sometimes argue how they believe doomhammer was the better warchief, but I tend to disagree with this. When it came to it, despite Orgrims honorable intentions, all he was able to do was to try and stear an out of control train to its inevitable end. The horde then was still an invading army lead by bloodlust and power, and even doomhammer couldn't stop what was to come. He couldn't change what the horde had become.. But Thrall was able to, as I've discribed.

Orgrim Doomhammer, while he was Warchief, was working with a derailing train. That I do not contest. The old Horde was doomed to failure, the moment they allowed Bloodlust to consume them. However, what you're forgetting, is that Thrall was not the only figure that restarted the Horde.

Doomhammer and Hellscream were both central figures in making sure that the Horde fought their Bloodlust and became what they are today. They should be given just as much credit as Thrall.

Thrall got a lucky break when he became Warchief. Where Doomhammer started with a train, slowly rolling off the tracks; Thrall started with essentially a brand new train. The orcs had been in captivity and suffered from Lethargy for about 15 years before Thrall, Doomhammer, and Hellscream came back to lead them. They had lost their will, and as such, lost much of their Bloodlust.

From that collective of essentially mindless orcs, came Doomhammer, leading with Strength; Thrall, reminding them of the old ways of shamanism; and Hellscream, showing all of them that they could be the masters of the Bloodlust, and not the other way around.

You cannot say that Thrall was the only influence in making the Horde what it is. Doomhammer and Hellscream both were just as much responsible for the renewed vigor they experienced in that early reformation time.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Doomhammer, we may not even have the Horde today. He was the one that inspired Thrall to lead his people.

I don't think Doomhammer would make a better Warchief, but I think he would make a very different Warchief from Thrall. Perhaps one that would fulfill my wants of the Horde to be both honorable and warlike simultaneously.

发布者 Patty

But because that thread has derailed so much from how it started, I thought it was worth going from skratch and making the point I've wanted to make on it.You're essentially posting the same thing twice?

(and since this might bring a lot of trolling and flaming, I'll not bother asking anyone not to, because it doesn't seem to change that fact).Well, to be fair - If the first one got trolled, it's likely that this one will too.

where as the horde operated on a different level of kingship (some calling it a dictatorship, which isn't really the case) where one ruler governs all races under his rule.That's a dictatorship. Dictatorships are not automatically bad things, because if you look at the Draenei - Velen leads what could be seen as a benevolent dictatorship. There is one undisputed ruler. The Alliance and the Horde also have some factors which may suggest it is actually totalitarian - to a certain extent. A prime example would be the Alliance and Horde's secret polices and spy networks (SI7 and the Shattered Hand respectively).

Although each horde race has its own respected leader, the law is only passed and inforced by its figurehead, the warchief.Who, as much as I like him, failed to enforce his laws enough obviously, because otherwise many things may not have happened - Such as Wrathgate, sucking the Light out of Mu'ru or the Broken Front - As much as I still blame Varian for justifying it by declaring war.

It has supported itself without him being there for a long time, and well Jaina was something of a leader in regards to hyjal, she has never had that position as an overal leader of the alliance forces.She was the closest thing to it. Varian and Jaina are the prime leaders at the moment, but we do not know how the other leaders feel about this, and can only speculate. The difference is that the races in the Alliance are not obligated to do whatever Varian says.

Now. Coming to Thrall, the fact of why the alliance have not needed one like Varian to sustain itself is because of, as I say, each of the alliance races governing bodies being self sustaining, well with the horde, the horde races are those who would be regarded as 'seeking survival', the orcs first of course, then the darkspear trolls, then the tauren, the forsaken of course with, and the blood elves, all these races looking to survive somehow where there cultures and people were dying or needing aid to sustain itself. That is what the horde gave to each of them as a whole (and the reason I like the horde so much).Well...The Trolls and Tauren are honour-bound because Thrall actively saved their asses. The Blood Elves and Forsaken are basically using it as something to manipulate while they recover.

Despite the darker elements of the horde, it is because of Thralls leadership that these races, rather then embrasing it, were able to find something beyond it. Trolls who claim to hate all other races ended up making companionship and friendship with orcs and tauren, forsaken were able to find cause for fighting as warriors rather then ravagering undead, the orcs were able to regain there spirital belief, and even blood elves were able to redeem themselves for past sins (sunwell). Hm, I disagree with some of this.

The Darkspear tribe have always been seen as pathetic, weak and damn-right weird by other Troll tribes. So, the Darkspears aren't really representative for the whole race - They accepted the Orcs' aid because they had no other alternative. That may have changed them, but they may only be pretending to have changed. This is speculation on my part.

The Forsaken were fighting as warriors before they joined the Horde, that's what made them different to the Scourge, along with their freedom.

The Blood Elves never really redeemed themselves. Velen did it for them.

even the forsaken were given a chance to learn a code of honor they badly lacked.
Well...The Scourge fight dirty. The Forsaken's primary enemy is the Scourge. Fighting fire with fire, so to speak.
And this is because of Thrall. People sometimes argue how they believe doomhammer was the better warchief, but I tend to disagree with this. Doomhammer had a major influence in liberating the Orcs and giving his people a fresh start. He made Thrall less human, and more Orc.

This is why I am so defensive of Thrall. This is why when someone questions what he's able to do as warchief, I have to correct those assumptions or allegations. Well, we know that Thrall has done some majorly good things and made strong decisions. However, many of his actions - or lack of them - Are highly questionable.
The forsaken event in wotlk, well some like to use this as a scapegoat to criticize Thralls leadership, being as I've described he is the hordes leader and so responsible for all races of the horde, I for one disagree to this.So, you're going back on what you originally said? Try not to contradict yourself, it might cripple your argument. What it actully shows, is that Thrall puts his faith in his allies as an act of trust, despite him ruling all races under his law he gives respect to his allies enough not to clamp an iron fist down on them.This is speculation on your part, and wishful thinking. I think his problem is naïveté. Like it has been said before, there were all sorts of warning signs about the Forsaken from the word "Go!" And Thrall decided to leave them to their own devices. Some might see this as a soft tactic, but if anything it shows that he isn't a dictator and rather someone who rules with wisdom instead of fear.Again, Dictatorships are only as bad as the person incharge.

发布者 HiVolt

where as the horde operated on a different level of kingship (some calling it a dictatorship, which isn't really the case) where one ruler governs all races under his rule.That's a dictatorship. Dictatorships are not automatically bad things, because if you look at the Draenei - Velen leads what could be seen as a benevolent dictatorship. There is one undisputed ruler. The Alliance and the Horde also have some factors which may suggest it is actually totalitarian - to a certain extent. A prime example would be the Alliance and Horde's secret polices and spy networks (SI7 and the Shattered Hand respectively).

The forsaken event in wotlk, well some like to use this as a scapegoat to criticize Thralls leadership, being as I've described he is the hordes leader and so responsible for all races of the horde, I for one disagree to this.So, you're going back on what you originally said? Try not to contradict yourself, it might cripple your argument. What it actully shows, is that Thrall puts his faith in his allies as an act of trust, despite him ruling all races under his law he gives respect to his allies enough not to clamp an iron fist down on them.This is speculation on your part, and wishful thinking. I think his problem is naïveté. Like it has been said before, there were all sorts of warning signs about the Forsaken from the word "Go!" And Thrall decided to leave them to their own devices. Some might see this as a soft tactic, but if anything it shows that he isn't a dictator and rather someone who rules with wisdom instead of fear.Again, Dictatorships are only as bad as the person incharge.

I would like to say that having Intelligence organizations as branches of your military is not grounds for Totalitarianism. After all, the US has the CIA, and it is not a totalitarian nation. And I know you said "to a certain extent", Patty. It's just my nitpickery coming out. :P

Also, the Horde would be classified as an Oligarchic Autocracy, as I have stated on multiple occasions. The Autocrat would be the Warchief, and the oligarchic element would be the various leaders of the respective factions within the Horde, Thrall included. None of which have a democratic system of their leaders being appointed. That means each faction is an Autocracy in it's own right. All of the faction leaders have an influencing opinion in the leadership of the Horde, this is the oligarchic element at play; however, the final decision always rests with the Warchief, and there you have the Autocracy.

Now, this is not saying that the Horde is an evil organization for having a Dictatorship-like form of government. Far from it, in fact, as Patty has already stated.

Also, on the matter of Thrall being labeled as a scapegoat for the Wrathgate:

Thrall, being the Warchief, did not do his job in this particular situation. The Warchief is not just a leader that sits upon a throne and lets everyone else take care of the dirty work. The Warchief is the Supreme Political Ruler and Supreme Military Commander in all situations concerning the Horde. One of the criteria for being the Supreme Military Commander, is knowing all of the weapons and tactics you have at your disposal. This includes the Blight.

The main problem with the Wrathgate is not that a rogue faction from within the Horde acted for themselves, such acts of rebellion sometimes cannot be stopped, even in an Autocracy. What the problem is, is the Blight. Think of the Blight, and the experiments leading to it's creation as the Nuclear Bomb and the Manhattan Project. If Thrall did not know about the Blight, it's his own fault. If he did and did nothing about it (given his Shamanistic beliefs, I of course mean stopping it's creation), it's his own fault. If he knew about the Blight, and allowed for it's use against the Scourge and the Lich King, and only that purpose, it's his fault for not controlling that usage more closely.

That a rogue faction rose up in the first place to commit the act (and I know I have stated to the contrary before, but I officially recant that) he cannot be blamed for, unless you want to blame him for allowing the Forsaken into the Horde in the first place (totally a matter of opinion). The only ones that can be blamed for the RAS' actions are Sylvanas (for not keeping a tighter leash on her subjects, we are talking about another autocracy after all), and Putress & Varimathras (for obvious reasons).

However, that the Blight was used in the attack... that makes it Thrall's fault.

发布者 Patty

I would like to say that having Intelligence organizations as branches of your military is not grounds for Totalitarianism. After all, the US has the CIA, and it is not a totalitarian nation. And I know you said "to a certain extent", Patty. It's just my nitpickery coming out. :PWell, a secret police is one of the main factors in creating a totalitarian state. It wouldn't surprise me if Garrosh consolidated power by making the Horde more totalitarian. If anyone would like me to discuss the key factors in creating a totalitarian regime, and try to adapt it to the Horde, I can try my best at that.

Now, this is not saying that the Horde is an evil organization for having a Dictatorship-like form of government. Far from it, in fact, as Patty has already stated.Indeed. ^_^

My nit-picking hates the assumption that dictatorship = evil. It's not always the regime that matters, but who is the head of that regime.

发布者 HiVolt

I would like to say that having Intelligence organizations as branches of your military is not grounds for Totalitarianism. After all, the US has the CIA, and it is not a totalitarian nation. And I know you said "to a certain extent", Patty. It's just my nitpickery coming out. :PWell, a secret police is one of the main factors in creating a totalitarian state. It wouldn't surprise me if Garrosh consolidated power by making the Horde more totalitarian. If anyone would like me to discuss the key factors in creating a totalitarian regime, and try to adapt it to the Horde, I can try my best at that.

Warning, more nitpickery incoming, but also a relevant question.

Would the Shattered Hand and SI:7 be considered a "Secret Police Force"? It always seemed to me that the two organizations were more for gathering intelligence on enemy/terrorist/anti-Horde/evil organizations (much like the CIA), rather than being a Secret Police, IE: the KGB or the SS.

发布者 Rankkor

whoa long reading, humm, time to get my glasses.

before starting to read, I will say tauren, that while I agree that the horde is much better with thrall than without him, the horde doesn't really "needs" him.

that is to say, if for X reason he's removed, the horde will not colapse itself overnight, it will exist, but it's future, and road will not be the same, and undoubtly, without a wise leader, it can fall back to it's old ways.

that being said, one thing is to say that the horde is much better with thrall as the head, than say "without thrall the horde will die".

on that point I kinda disagree. as an organization the horde isn't built to rest on a single individual, regardless of how noble and honorable that individual is.

if the horde depended on 1 man to subsist, it would be a terrible weakness, and thrall would never instill such a weakness on to the horde.

maybe this is one of the many reasons he steps down, to prevent the horde of depending on him too much, because such dependances are a weakness, and the horde can't afford to be weak if it is to survive against the hostilities of the alliance and their racist leader.

发布者 Skreeran

发布者 Patty

发布者 HiVolt

Would the Shattered Hand and SI:7 be considered a "Secret Police Force"? It always seemed to me that the two organizations were more for gathering intelligence on enemy/terrorist/anti-Horde/evil organizations (much like the CIA), rather than being a Secret Police, IE: the KGB or the SS.

I think so. "Enemies" Can exist within the state.

Remember, the KGB were translated as "Committee for State Security " - Which is pretty much what SI7 and the Shattered Hand do.

Yes but, "Secret Police", at least to me, has the inherent value of being Jude, Jury, and Executioner. The KGB, SS, etc., were all given powers by their governments to kill basically anybody who showed any amount of dissent.

The SI:7 and Shattered Hand don't seem to have that kind of power. They seem to be more like the CIA, who still have to go through the normal processes of the law.

发布者 Patty

发布者 Skreeran

The SI:7 and Shattered Hand don't seem to have that kind of power. They seem to be more like the CIA, who still have to go through the normal processes of the law.

But we don't know what power they hold. The Deathstalkers are definitely Sylvanas' secret police, and I assume the Shattered Hand and SI:7 are similar organisations.I don't think so. Thrall would definitely not use any sort of secret police. Garrosh, maybe, but not Thrall. Likewise, SI:7 definitely seems more like the CIA to me. They do send you to kill a few people, but for the most part the targets are already known as criminals. The closest thing to Secret Policing that they do it kill that noble who was working with the Defias.

发布者 Patty

the Shattered Hand has become the Horde's guild of assassins.

SI:7 is an Alliance organization. It includes rogues specializing in special operations, assassination, and stealth tactics. It is one of the most active organizations in the Alliance...they deal with cloak-and-dagger external affairs.

Seems like they could also act as a secret police, assassinating enemies from within as well as abroad.

发布者 HiVolt

发布者 Adamsm

Here's the thing:

The Horde does not need Thrall. I would be very sad if it actually needed Thrall.

Why?

Because someday, Thrall will die. If the Horde cannot live without Thrall, then the Horde is doomed to failure.

Yes, Thrall is an amazing character who has united so many people under the same banner. But he has to let go of the reins sometime. I just hope that the Horde doesn't need Thrall as much as you say.

Exactly; if something 'really' happens to him; assassinated, accident, what have you: The Horde is #$%^ed, simple as that. None of the Alliance races are like that after all: Varian dies, the new Reagent helps Anduin for 4 years. Magni goes down, Brann or Maurdin could step up to rule till a new Thane could be decided. Malfurion or Tyrande goes down; Elune or Cenarius can choose a new leader for the Night Elves. The gnome king dies, a new gnome can take his place. Even if Velen dies, that merely means the Draenei lose out on one source of advice and good will... but the Naaru are still there, and they would probably help to make sure that the new Draenei leader follows in his predecessors footsteps.

发布者 chase123

Exactly; if something 'really' happens to him; assassinated, accident, what have you: The Horde is #$%^ed, simple as that. None of the Alliance races are like that after all: Varian dies, the new Reagent helps Anduin for 4 years. Magni goes down, Brann or Maurdin could step up to rule till a new Thane could be decided. Malfurion or Tyrande goes down; Elune or Cenarius can choose a new leader for the Night Elves. The gnome king dies, a new gnome can take his place. Even if Velen dies, that merely means the Draenei lose out on one source of advice and good will... but the Naaru are still there, and they would probably help to make sure that the new Draenei leader follows in his predecessors footsteps.

I wouldn't say the Horde is screwed without Thrall. There are plenty of other leaders within the Horde that can take the mantle of Warchief if Thrall perishes. Drek'thar, Saurfang, even Vol'jin and Cairne can unite and lead the Horde as good as Thrall.

The Horde needs Thrall, and this is why..

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