Comments

Comment by Lurtzello

I only hope this back not to have the same skin as the previous tanking backs of this expansion...

Comment by 696828

shouldn't have much to worry about, most of the stuff is using placeholder models right now.

Comment by lhavelund

I'm pretty curious about this item; why does a tanking cloak have hit? I'm aware hit is used for generating threat, but I was fairly certain the consensus was that hit was a practically useless stat for tanks, who should instead focus on mitigation and avoidance.

Comment by petre

True, though as I noted on the girdle it's a bit much to ask for a perfectly itemized item higher than the previous heroic raiding drops from doing daily quests. You can reforge the hit to mastery.

Reforging the hit to mastery and comparing to a reforged Wrap of the Great Turtle (an item of similar difficulty to obtain) gives a difference of

THIS: 55 Stam, 70 Armor, 177 Parry, 69 Hit
WRAP: 17 Str, 81 Mastery, 77 Dodge

Assuming you can reforge other pieces to balance avoidance as desired, that results in a mitigation comparison of 100 Parry + 70 Armor vs. 81 mastery (some slight dithering for parry from 17 Str, and if you have a % health mechanic some from the 55 Stam too, but pretty minor both of those)

I don't think I'd give up the 81 mastery for 100 Parry and a bit of armor. I'll probably stick with the Wrap for now.

Comment by axel1672

In response to lhavelund

Tell that to Battleplate of the Apocalypse Magma Plated Faceguard Magma Plated Shoulderguards Reinforced Sapphirium Shoulderguards Reinforced Sapphirium Faceguard

Hit is not "bad" for tanks its just not ideal, but with the new reforging system it doesn't really matter anymore; as that hit can become Mastery.

Comment by axel1672

IMO no stat is "bad" (unless it's like Spirit and Int for a tank) its just not ideal. For a DK that hit can be a lifesaver and transmute into more survivability. Right now my DK tank has about 1% hit which means I miss 6.18% on skulled elites. That's 6.18% of a damage shield that is wasted if I miss a death strike, which also means I don't get the healing from the death strike.

Now I know that its obviously different for warriors and pallys as their survivability doesn't rely on self heals as much as DKs, but for DKs at least hit still has some use to it.

Comment by danadocus

This has less damage reduction than Wrap of the Great Turtle (including reforging).

Comment by 534473

You're assuming tanks will be able to hold aggro on the top DPS in firelands at the new gear levels and that therefore hit and expertise will be worthless. This isn't something to be taken for granted. The more avoidance/mitigation you get, the less damage you take and therefore the harder it is to generate the vengeance neccesary to hold aggro. This is offset by the fact that bosses and mobs will do extra damage, but only to a certain degree. Tank threat may very well not scale enough to match the ever increasing DPS threat as a result of this in firelands, in which case tanks will be looking for stats like hit and expertise to prevent this happening.

Comment by Naifas

For the "hit haters":

First, hit isn't "useless" as you mentioned: it's an important survivability stat (e.g. for DK and Druid tanks), , the way things are now. It also helps on threat values, and you don't want dpsers dead do you?

By this I don't mean tanks should be hit capped, but completely disregarding this stat is a mistake.

Comment by Crusaderwolf

Really, hit is not bad for a tank. True it is more a threat stat but it does help us establish threat so DPS can get to go pew pew faster.

A few tanks in higher content (I.E. heroic raids with a few bosses on farm) might even have 2 sets of tank gear 1 for survivability and 1 for threat, and the main diff might be a few slots have hit or expertese on them.

Before saying hit is useless, think of how some OTHER tanks might need/use it, not everyone has the same acess to things so depending on content/group make up that small bit of hit may be what thye need to keep their raids going.

Comment by Shada

pbean is correct, but his post requires some qualification.

Hit is indeed next to worthless for Paladins and Warriors. I actually prefer this quest reward to this cloak on my Warrior.

However, hit is not useless for Deathknights, because it translates directly into mitigation via Death Strike; a Death Knight's Mastery isn't going to come into play if their Death Strikes miss, after all. Having said that, Expertise is still preferable to Hit, of course.

NobbynobLittlun: Capped hit is more important to me than dodge or parry; it figures into #1 and #3. And #3 figures into #1 anyway! The more dps you're doing, the faster the boss dies. The more dps you're doing, the more dps your dps can do, the faster the boss can die.

i) Your healers must hate you. Capping Hit as a tank is wasted itemisation, even for a Death Knight.

ii) If your raid is relying on your dps contribution as much as you seem to claim, your actual DPS need to get their shiznit together.

iii) I think you should take a look at this link, and re think your position.

Edited: formatting.

Comment by Shada

Hello Nobby,

I don't usually debate on Wowhead. But I'm going to succumb this once, because other tanks reading this might learn something if they're at all unsure. Hopefully, this will include you.

I don't know why you bring Vigilance up. It's not like I'm advocating getting rid of stamina.

I bring ~~Vigilance~~ Vengeance up because that is the primary source of tank dps. It is not capped hit. Defensive stats are actually better for your dps because it means you can take more damage.

...once the healers have no problem keeping you alive, more dodge/parry becomes more of a waste than expertise or hit.

You may think your healers have no problem, but the fact is they'd have far less of a problem keeping you up if you were focusing on your avoidance (Dodge/Parry) or mitigation (Mastery) as you're supposed to. A tank doesn't have to worry about Dodge and Parry becoming "less useful" until they hit around 15% on each. Which you shouldn't be in danger of, if you're reforging correctly. Maybe this will actually matter when fully geared in this tier. It doesn't now.

No matter where it's coming from, and no matter how much DPS you already have, the raid can always use more.

This is true, but despite what you posted above, it is not your place as a tank to provide it. If as a tank you're capping hit and expertise like you're playing Arms or Fury or Retribution - at the expense of defensive stats, no less - you're hurting your raid, not helping them.

Bottom line: You're applying a DPS mindset to tanking. DPS isn't your job. Your raid needs a tank who is going to survive what the boss is dishing out, far more than they need the extra 400-500 ish Prot DPS your 8% Hit and 26 Expertise provides. Please stop trying to justify it.

Comment by 52390

Threat's not the issue here.

I don't usually debate on Wowhead. But I'm going to succumb this once, because other tanks reading this might learn something if they're at all unsure. Hopefully, this will include you.

Hee, that's what I was gonna say :D

By all means, if your healers feel more comfortable with more avoidance, get more!

Happy guildmates matter more than anything.There's a point though, where more avoidance - while beneficial - isn't even noticed by the healers.

I used to think the same way: get as much avoidance, as much mitigation as possible. Take as little damage as possible. But this gets to be tunnel vision. As my pal V says, "dead bosses wipe no raids." And he's our best healer (damn fine bear tank too).

This isn't a dps mentality, not at all. This is me looking at death logs and damage taken throughout the fight, and asking myself, "What can I do to make things more manageable?" The fact is, if I look only at the damage I take, of course it's mostly melee damage. Of course I want the healers comfortable keeping up with it. But mine is not the only health bar. It's not all that healers are concerned with, nor is it all that I'm concerned with.

Let's look at Lady Vashj way back in SSC; for me, that's where this line of reasoning started. Most of the fight was a piece of cake, really; so where'd the wheels come off? Pretty consistently, the very last phase. The entire raid starts dying off as the spore bats fill the place with guano. Doubling my avoidance wouldn't do anything to stop it. Doubling healer mana wouldn't either. Healers started throwing nukes. I regemmed, reflasked, regeared. We barely squeaked through without having to farm another week. Huh. Well it's just one boss, right?

Heck, let's look at another boss that used to be big and bad: Yogg-Saron. Heck, let's make it heroic Yogg-Saron. I'm just going to assume that you did this fight back in the day. Now, how much of the damage was the raid taking in the form of an attack, hitting you specifically, that could be dodge, blocked, or parried? Okay, now ask yourself, how much would the raid have given to end each phase just 10-20 seconds sooner? To have just one less round of madness?

A few less seconds of Leeching Swarm on Anub'arak? One less Bone Storm on Marrowgar? A few less debuffs from Prof. Putricide? One less Frost Beacon on Sindragosa? One less wave of Vile Spirits on Lich King? A few less Electric Instabilities on Ascendant Council? One less spawn of tentacles on Cho'gall? A few less Shadowblaze Sparks on Nefarian? A few less volcanoes and a few less adds on Lord Rhyolith? One less stack of Fury on Majordomo Staghelm? Tank damage is significant now. It can provide all of these things, if desired.

Or less melee damage, just on yourself? Ask your healers. I did. Yours might feel differently. Either way, gotta keep 'em happy.

The hit rating here isn't godly, that's for sure, but it has its place alongside dodge, parry, etc. The one thing I don't "get" here is why people feel the need to criticize Blizzard's choice of itemization. They're just as obsessed with WoW as we are, and you don't get to making the technologies they've made without some serious math-fu under your belt. Str, expertise, hit, you might wonder why it's there instead of more survivability; I'd just as soon assume they know something we don't :)

Or you can assume that you know something they don't. But then you'd be even crazier than you guys think I am. Which by now has got to be pretty crazy.

Comment by itankforuman

Just a point that nobody has adressed, is how each class is different. For a class like a pally avoidance and mitigation is just that... avoidance. However, for a warrior, it is considerably more. Yes, you don't get dodged or parried if you're hit capped, which is nice, but for a warrior, the more mitigation you have, the more dps you do. Yes, you will miss more often, but you will block more often, which translates into 15 rage (or one devastate) per block, which is CONSIDERABLE dps. You have to look at how your class dpses and make the view from there. For a pally, if you want that extra dps, GO FOR IT with hit/exp. For a warrior, mastery will help your dps more than any other stat. Just something to keep in mind is that this is not something that is the same for every class, which some of you are treating it as such.

Comment by 875577

Okay, I've read the debate posts, and understand where both of you are going with your thoughts.

Shada,
You seem to believe that tanks should throw everything but defense to the wind.

Nobby,
You seem to believe that the two should balance out, after you reach a certain point on defense.

Now, in my opinion, as a tank, I've tried focusing on watching my hit and expertise caps. I got squishy. I went pure defense, but I feel that I don't land enough hits to fully keep aggro(feeling like I could lose it at any given moment). The thing is, from what I've seen, both of your points are valid. Your increased tanking DPS means nothing if you can't fully take the heavier hits, but, at the same time, with fireland epics causing your DPS to put out more and more DPS, missing(being dodged, parried, etc.) some of the attacks won't allow you to keep aggro. Now, I started sometime during Wrath, not the beginning of WoW, but, still, this is my observation on the matter. The hit rating isn't a waste since you can't hold aggro if you can't land a hit. At the same time, Blizzard knew that we would be squishy should he have to focus on straight hit and expertise, so, again, in my opinion, they comprimised and made all melee to be 8% hit need and ?26? expertise, so your defense isn't hurt too much in trying to achieve cap. Also, at the same time, I've noticed that I can still land quite a few blows on a .95% current hit rating and 20 expertise, but, I imagine, as time passes, and I gain more defense and offense, I'll eventually not have to worry.

As the item levels get higher, the stats get higher. Even with reforging, eventually, you can cap hit and expertise, and still stack defense. One thing to keep in mind is, while they are not our main go to stats, the offensive tanking stats are still useful in holding aggro AND contributing to killing. With the same stats given above, I've pulled 11k-12k trash DPS in a troll heroic while taking hits like a pro. Only trouble I really had was the fact that I hardly did the troll heroics so my knowledge was still as that of newborn to them.

Endgame:
My main point here is, don't count a stat as useless just because your role needs you to do a certain task. It makes it about the same as a DPSing druid raging, and saying it's not his/her job, when the paladin, priest, or shaman, healer requests them to rebirth a tank in midfight. Or a tank pulling half an instance, forcing a wipe, and calling the healer useless because he/she couldn't heal through the idiocy.

Edit - Forgot to mention...you both seem to be judging from a Warrior class point of view. My tank is actually a Paladin. Should that negate my input, that's your call, but, I still stand by my main point.

Edit2 - Just noticed Shada mention Paladins in his first post.

Edit3 - Changed the DPS note to reflect that it is off trash, not a boss.

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Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak

Item Level 378
Binds when picked up

Back

695 Armor
+173 Strength
+341 Stamina

Requires Level 85
Requires Avengers of Hyjal - Friendly
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 227.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 115.

Sell Price: 62 50

Durable Flamewrath Greatcloak

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