This argument is way to similar to the "Pearl Harbour" vs "Hiroshima" debate, and in the end its quite equal.
Soooo anyone else thinking about April 1st coming up? Was the first thing that came to mind when looking at the headline. The picture with drawn panda's took away every doubt left... :)
It always disturbs me a bit how shallow some players are. If you look at the pretty Alliance races and the not-so-pretty (aside from blood elves) Horde and go "yup, those Horde guys sure are the bad ones!" you failed the test. Both sides have committed what we would today call atrocities and war crimes. I guess some of you don't know about that time the Alliance put every single orc they could find in concentration camps. And that was only after some of the humans had to be talked down from genocide! But hey, I guess reading from Hitler's playbook and trying to murder children is OK as long as you won the war, right?What really drew me in during Warcraft 3 was how you start off playing the pretty-boy paladin and it's just like every generic fantasy story. Then his good intentions lead him down a road that involves deception, murder, and finally corruption by the evil he was trying to fight. Meanwhile we learn that some orcs are trying to move past the blood curse, struggling in an alien world to find a home for themselves as the baggage of their past crimes continues to haunt them. Or how the forsaken have to fight the control of the lich king and liberate themselves, only to be betrayed by their fellow human beings because of their grim new appearance. Is it any wonder they turned so sour?This is what I love about the current state of Warcraft - it challenges us to look beyond those trained pavlovian responses of "humans good, orcs bad" and see a more nuanced world. Or at least that's what it's supposed to be doing... some of y'all need to get with the program!
I fear the worst, that it will become a second Azshara. :(
I personally believe that Garrosh Hellscream, in the end, will become the final boss of Mists of Pandaria. His hatred could spawn dozens of high powered Sha. There is good to him, if you ever played in stonetalon. There isn't much of it but it's there. Which leads me to my personal thoughts of how Pandaria will end.* Final boss is Hellscream. Both Alliance and Horde can face him. After fighting him down to about 25% health he attempts to use a pandarian artifact, he is stunned and a massive sha of anger emerges which engages the heroes in combat. After getting the Sha of Anger down to 1% the Sha attempts to take everyone with him. Hellscream jumps in front of the bast to save the heroes who defeated the sha. When hellscream lays dieing, he is asked by some person why did he do it. He *smiles* and responds that he finally understood what his father was thinking and dies. Both alliance and horde look at each other and agree that enough blood shed was spilled today and part ways, weapons sheath, at least for now. * Personal thoughts, any likeness or similarities are coincidental.
No Horde are the "bad" ones because they are written that way in Lore. The Orcs came through the Dark Portal and decimated Stormwind and killed every human in their path in their conquest. So we put them in concentration camps and imprisoned them. They were punished for their crimes. The Horde (as a whole isn't evil) but the Orcs and the Forsaken are very much evil and if you cannot see that then you are either blind or you have no concept of what good and evil is. Read up on some lore and then come back.Completely forgetting about the "little" fact that they had been corrupted and were being controlled by the Legion and prior to Nerzhuls corruption by Kiljaeden the orc's lived happily alongside the Draenei in peace, or that it was a human who opened the dark portal, a human who gave into power and purged his own people and became the Lich King or how a certain Katarina could blend into the higher councils of Stormwind with the corrupt arrogant humans that live and work there, or a leader who doesn't pays his citizens for there hard work in rebuilding the city only to be bitten in the ass by them.Do you see where this is going? If you truly think that one side or one faction is more "evil" or "good" than an other you are a blind fool. They are both the same and can be as noble or brutal as each other, I might even go as far say that Blizz has slipped up abit here with the ol Orc vs Human and put to much focus on them rather than maybe putting equaling it out with the other races.P.S apologies for any misspelling as this was some what rushed, I hope you see the point Woodfoord as I could start on the elfs prior to any alliance/horde and Illidan...
Top image makes me laugh :)
Thrall saved Azeroth from deathwingwithout the orc, nothing lives till this dayEnd of Discussion
First off, READ THE GODAMN STORYLINE IN TAURAJO.They left holes in their lines for civillians to retreat through.Southshore?I think Admiral rogers says it best.
CaoimheX I agree with you 100%. You spelled everything out perfectly and with crystal clarity. The Orcs invaded Azeroth. They are not native to the world. They came here to conquer and destroy it. Yes the Alliance put them in concentration camps. We imprisoned them for their crimes. I consider that an act of mercy. They were imprisoned not killed. They have never given a human such mercy. The Forsaken are not welcomed by humans and they are not trusted by any race - not even the Horde ones. They have one goal and only one goal to kill every living being on Azeroth and convert them to undead. I have nothing at all against the Trolls or Tauren. They are noble races who want peace. The Blood Elves simply want peace and although they did commit crimes they have paid for them and are not what I would consider evil. The Goblins are basically nothing more than hired mercenaries with no real loyalties or allegiance to anyone other than who ever is paying them the most. Thrall is good. He is a honorable, respectable and trust worthy Orc. The only one! If the Orcs would follow in his foot steps then they could reshape their future and make amends for their past crimes. But as of right now the Orcs and the Forsaken are very very very evil and warmongering.
I personally don't understand why everyone needs to paint motivations and moral statements on whole races and factions with massive, broad brushes. It comes back to the key question that Mists poses: Why do you fight?I would have thought that anyone following the Mists story line would have by now noticed that it's the decisions of individuals that matter. Lord Zhu went through a fall and redemption in 5.0, and the conversation above shows how he has tempered from it. He fights to defend home, and the sanctity of their holy places.The klaxxi story pretty much states that should the old gods return, the klaxxi will side with them. Yet anyone who did the quest chain though would have a lot of respect and fondness for the klaxxi, and it's only in their total trust and respect for the player that they take you aside and tell you this. They fight to strengthen their race, weed out the weak. They don't intend to take over Pandaria. Are they evil?The Jade forest shows what happens when mindless war breaks out in Pandaria, and the quest designers were smart. They made the players become so invested in the statue, then made us learn why it exists, then it get shattered. So much guilt to be felt, and Yu'lon isn't even angry. Yet Nazgrim and Taylor don't see it. Are they evil? Why do they fight?The mogu turn out to be quite a complex story too. They were the keepers of Pandaria, and they acted on the words of the titans, till the titans fell silent. So after an age of war and infighting, the Thunder King rallied them around his words and his voice. He gave them meaning, and purpose. They fight to create their version of order. Are they evil?Anduin and Wrathion are both young, powerful princes with the same goal in mind: save Azeroth. Yet they have completely competing viewpoints - power and knowledge used for the right end goal justifies use VS every action being one that is morally right. Is Anduin naive? Is Wrathion evil?Garrosh is another complex character. He's actions are decisive, his views are black and white. yet in the end, his basic motivation is to preserve the orc race, and create a legacy where no orc should suffer again. In itself, that is a good goal, but it's in his implementation, and his "with me or against me" attitude that the evil is shown. It is the choices and decisions that each character makes that defines them, same as you. Warcraft's story has a complex set of moral threads, it is an injustice to the story to paint a black and white moral label over a race, or faction. Look deeper.