Keep this change far away from my realm. It is very true that 25 mans are declining. Even the World First was a 10 man this time (Even tough nearly all others were 25). But making 25s a higher ilvl is a terrible idea. It will effectively kill all 10 mans. Everybody will scramble to turn into a 25 guild. Maybe 25s really need saving, but it can't come in better gear. Nobody who runs 10 mans will accept the crappy lower ilvl.
It may just be a crazy idea, but what about leaving everything the way it is (shared lockouts, same ilvl, etc, etc...) But bring back the separate achievement system from WotlK? I think it would give something for 25 man guilds to aim for that's gonna be more than what 10 man get, while not being anything game breaking. Yes, achievement hunters (like me) would still have to run both versions, but this is something that can be done over time as the expansion goes.Any toughts on this?
It may just be a crazy idea, but what about leaving everything the way it is (shared lockouts, same ilvl, etc, etc...) But bring back the separate achievement system from WotlK? I think it would give something for 25 man guilds to aim for that's gonna be more than what 10 man get, while not being anything game breaking. Yes, achievement hunters (like me) would still have to run both versions, but this is something that can be done over time as the expansion goes.Any toughts on this?I agree somewhat, like have separate achievements for finishing the raid or doing parts of it(like the wings from ICC). But keep the meta the same for both. I think it matters for realm first, but most people will be happy just getting the mount on either difficulty. I want separate lockouts but not different item lvls, I think more loot per person in 25 man is enough.
I don't know, but I'm sure something else could be done.I agree on that.This sounds a bit unfair for 10m raiders. If you think about the raid comps: if 10m group have 2 mages, they are screwed. If 25m have 3 mages, they are okayish/fine. 25m guilds get geared up faster than 10m guilds.One obvious reason, why 10m downed heroic progress faster than 25m guild, might be that they just were better players. I also know (and im sure many other people know it too) that hardy any 25m guilds have 25 good players, they have couple very good players, couple decent ones and rest are mainly bad.Then blizzard want to support these bad players, i dont understand why?And just in case i want to point out that Im not saying ALL 10m raiders are better, cuz they arent.Im not sure what i should think about the lockout system, but this item level system must be a joke. no? What gives the privilege to 25m guilds to get better loot?Blizzard is making raiding easier to 25m guild all the time. Easier fights, doesnt matter if couple players f*ck up or die its still doable, now better loots. If blizzard doesnt like 10m raid idea, why they dont just remove it? If they are gonna continue like this, there wont be any point to do 10m raids in next expansion.Im so hoping that this was one drunken idea from dev team.Justice, where is it? Seriously.
Bring back 40mans.
I have a semi-solution that would be better at least than the current changes. Make the lockouts different (1 run each per week) but the second run gives NO GEAR UNLESS they use the elder charms of good fortune.No change in iLevel, no gauranteed loot, but still a CHANCE to get more loot IF you did the work (dailies) to earn the charms. The incentive wont be huge to run both, and there is no gaurantee it will pay off, but guilds can try both each week with no advantages/disadvantages.And before you complain, this is already live AFAIK on LFR, that you can down the boss repeatedly and use a charm at a chance for loot you wouldnt normally get.
Now raiders will have to run every raid twice weekly in order to gear up.Blizzard bringing the daily grind to raids? Fastest way to kill your userbase. Force everyone to go 'hardcore' and spend all day playing this game. Don't feel like it? Well in the time you weren't grinding something, someone else got 10 more ilvls and is going to replace you in the raid. Bbye.I can't even argue against this @#$% anymore. When their whole point is to insist people play their game all day, and you'd like to have the option not to, it's... gah.Why?Unlike the very few people in actual contention for World or US firsts, no one gives a carp how long it takes you to put a raid on farm. So, get your guild into a raid, do it week in and week out till you finish and that's that. Oh, Bob's guild finished the week before you did? Who cares. If get realm first you get a FoS which is meaningless really. If you don't you are competing for a participation medal, woo hoo.
Oh, Bob's guild finished the week before you did? Who cares.Sadly, a large majority of the player base for some weird reason.
Oh, Bob's guild finished the week before you did? Who cares.Sadly, a large majority of the player base for some weird reason.It's a race for everyone!
chinese server will seperate too,though they don't metion the exact time of changing. China have much more ppl than korea,Test in there will show us how it works.
NO. STOP. FULL STOP. TURN AROUND. Lower ilevel is the reason 10-man raids were considered a "ghetto" in LK. Blizzard should NOT force smaller guilds to pug in a dozen extras just to stay competitive. That was what killed raiding for me in TBC.
Yeah, I remember the hell of being forced to run the same raid twice each week, the second time with a bigger headache.I don't have time for that stupidity anymore. And for the people who say, "lol u wernt forced, nothing is in dis gaem," tell that to my ilvl counter. When someone can completely outgear you just by bringing an extra 15 people to a raid, it's not a nice feeling. My original guild got merged with a larger one for the sake of 25-man ICC, and every single one of the members still playing today regrets that decision deeply. Both guilds were destroyed by the time we'd progressed to 25 Valithria, and several of my friends quit PVE entirely, shortly before quitting the game.Should this silly reversal of Blizzard's earlier decision to share lockouts ever make its way to the NA servers, I will lodge my complaint and continue to raid ten man, as I enjoy doing so. But, inevitably, the call of better rewards for greater time spent will eat my raid group, and I will be left choosing between the constant irritation of 25's or quitting raiding, which means quitting Warcraft for me.
Seems rather strange, in order to fix the decline of 25 man raiding guilds, they are reverting back to the WotLK system. The reason for that was because people felt obligated to run both versions each week to get the best chance at loot.If they were to ever re-implement this in US/EU realms, doesn't that just bring back that issue? Or is this no longer an issue in their view?I personally liked the shared lockout of 10/25 mans because I'm one of those people who wants the best possible gear I can get, and therefor felt I had to run both versions. Obviously that's on me, but apparently it was a problem for a lot of people so....My argument to this is right now there is no choice. 10-man makes more sense, period. There is NO incentive to be 25-man right now. That's just sad for those of us who enjoy that raid size. Make the lockouts separate again and then there is an option. If people feel compelled to do both, that is THEIR DECISION! I, clearly, never liked the changes they made and would love it to go back to WotLK style.Also, I believe since 25-man takes more work and organization to accomplish week-after-week, that it should indeed yield better rewards. Even if that's just 4-5 more ilvl's.
huh......... Interesting.If they do this, I imagine they're obviously gonna remove the extra loot of the 25man version.
Also, I believe since 25-man takes more work and organization to accomplish week-after-week, that it should indeed yield better rewards. Even if that's just 4-5 more ilvl's.So what? 25-man are going that cause they like it more, don't they? Why they should get better loot for doing what they like more? If it's hard to organize 25 ppl to raid week-after-week, then they don't like, do they? And in that case 25-men raiding dies not because of shared lockouts but because people don't want it. There is no point to save 25-men raiding if players just don't want to do that.
Also, I believe since 25-man takes more work and organization to accomplish week-after-week, that it should indeed yield better rewards. Even if that's just 4-5 more ilvl's.So what? 25-man are going that cause they like it more, don't they? Why they should get better loot for doing what they like more? If it's hard to organize 25 ppl to raid week-after-week, then they don't like, do they? And in that case 25-men raiding dies not because of shared lockouts but because people don't want it. There is no point to save 25-men raiding if players just don't want to do that.Because I never bought into the reasoning behind the "shared lockout" explanation from the start. I always felt it had less to do with "players feeling obligated to run the same raid twice", and more to do with the "socialization" of WoW. I believe they shared the lockouts, made the gear equal in both 10 and 25, so players wouldn't / couldn't whine about "Bob's Guild has better gear than mine, just because they have more people, so they can run 25 mans".I was very active on most forums, including official, and I never recall a massive outcry of people complaining about being "forced" to run the same raid twice. Considering that it usually takes a virtual %^&*-storm of complaints to get Blizz to act on something, if their really was a problem, it would have been pretty obvious....and it wasn't. I for one loved the old style of having slightly better, and unique gear from 25 man raids. I also liked having more than one shot at a raid per week...if I chose to take that shot.
I agree with Magician. I am not in a guild, or on a server, which will in any likelihood allow me to do 25 man raids. However, I was in LK and I liked being able to do 10 or 25, or both. I like that we'll be able to go back and do old content, which DID have unique gear for 10 and 25, and not have to pick one or the other each week. I agree that 25-mans are harder because some mechanics get harder with more people, and a better reward is commensurate with the challenge. I like having the choice to do more things.If you are in a position where you feel that you NEED to have the best gear, to the point that you complain that they put more content in because it will make you HAVE to do a bunch of dailies, or HAVE to run a raid 3 times a week, I think you are letting the game have more control over your life than is necessary. Play what you like- there are clearly plenty of people who only like or have time for 10 mans, and you can all raid 10-mans together. The gear from 10 mans is sufficient to run 10 mans- you don't need to gear for raids you have no interest in doing. Opening up both lockouts gives people a choice to do more, not a requirement.
huh......... Interesting.If they do this, I imagine they're obviously gonna remove the extra loot of the 25man version.Ew. That could be chaotic.
Separating lockouts will make players feel forced to do the content twice per lockout, and making 25man more beneficial will make players feel forced to do 25mans. This is just going to the other extreme in this problem, not solution. I believe that just more pieces per player in 25man would be enough.Separating Achievements is something I'm OK with
Why should that work work on fights which are markedly easier on 25man?I know 25 man raiders like to believe 10 man encounters are easier ROFL easier, other than the non-encounter side of maintaining a roster of 25 dedicated players, are they really? Each player is, by the mere virtue of the numbers, less important (you can usually carry crappy DPS, or 1 or 2 people dying). Why should a less impactful players be rewarded with better loot? I can understand the lock outs, but whether most players will be interested in raiding LFR (at the start of tier), 10man and 25man.. debatable. People are already feeling burn out from doing the dailies.