You’re wrong. Next!Oh GC, wrong term; so many are going to see only that and use it as a reason to flame and bash, without reading the rest of the article....That said, I like it; matches with most of what I've been thinking in regards to the Mists talents, so nice to know.
I'm still not 100% sold on this new talent tree thingie, but with enough polish I may even grow to like it.As others have said before, ANYTHING is better than what we currently have.
You’re wrong. Next!Oh GC, wrong term; so many are going to see only that and use it as a reason to flame and bash, without reading the rest of the article....Though they would react the same way to any reply other than "ohmygod you're right, so sorry, gonna fix that right away to your liking"
The way I see it, Blizzard knows players are going to be whining about the new trees for a good amount time. However they also know that eventually players will just get used to it and stop the whining because blizzard WONT change the talents back to the way to the way they were before. You’re wrong. Next!As I have said a million times, good games (maybe good anything) can’t be designed by popular vote. Our design feedback process is about making informed decisions. The developers will make the decisions we feel are right for the game, but we’ll do that armed with the feedback from players about what is fun and not fun for them. If you want to provide the best feedback possible, try to be succinct (we get a lot of feedback), try to be specific (why don’t you like something), and don’t assume you speak for everyone (game design, like art, is often subjective). Don’t get upset if we don’t implement your idea -- that’s just not a realistic expectation. Don’t confuse the echo chamber phenomenon that can occur in forum discussions for consensus. Most importantly, try to remember what will be fun for everyone, and not just your character.This pretty much says it all. "Lol screw popular vote, but yeah sure we'll listen to the feedback on what you kids like and dont like, but we're still screwing with the talents. After all, WE KNOW whats best for you. OH and those people on the forums that don't like them? they don't know what they are talking about, don't listen to them. You mad brah?"Seriously, what problems are there with these talent trees that are so bad that we need to overhaul them every expansion? There really is nothing wrong with them. Stop screwing with it.
Seriously, what problems are there with these talent trees that are so bad that we need to overhaul them every expansion? There really is nothing wrong with them. Stop screwing with it.Well other then useless talents, talents that don't make a lot of sense, and things that are no brainers in regards to picking them.
Is this impassioned piece of nothing supposed to make me like the talent overhaul? If so it didn't work.
Seriously, what problems are there with these talent trees that are so bad that we need to overhaul them every expansion? There really is nothing wrong with them. Stop screwing with it.Well other then useless talents, talents that don't make a lot of sense, and things that are no brainers in regards to picking them.Then take them out/update/replace them with something else.. Don't totally screw with the whole system, tweeks are fine, but totally scrapping the system and replacing it is unnecessary.
I don't mind seeing a bit of change, but the new system seems way overboard.I like the idea of selecting between options that are not straight-forward for every playstyle. However, the system as currently proposed seems to offer no options for playstyle at all. What I'd like to see would be the same simplified concept, but with a separate tree for each spec. So say for a healer, your options select between a very strong heal slow heal, or a very fast weak heal, or a HoT. Same for DPS: big slow cast damage, little instant-cast damage damage, or a DoT. I'd much prefer that to being a healer and having to choose between 3 different options that have no effect on my healing. I feel as though I'll just be choosing something at random because a choice has to be made, and not because it's something I'll ever want or use.
Then take them out/update/replace them with something else.. Don't totally screw with the whole system, tweeks are fine, but totally scrapping the system and replacing it is unnecessary.Which is what is happening with the change to Spec; you get the passive abilities, the no-brainer abilities, and the duh abilities as you level, while the Talents you choose are up to you.
First, a lot of players do care about PvP, and almost every choice in the new talent model will be interesting for them. We are also taking some steps with Mists to encourage more crossover between PvP and PvE as the game once had, so even if you don’t care for PvP now, maybe we can get you interested in the future.There is the real problem with talent trees, trying to balance around a poorly concocted stew of pve and pvp. LIke chili con carne and lemon grass soup the two will never taste right mixed together.Also why force a crossover if a player likes either pve or pvp so be it. You can lead a player to a bg but ya cant make me fight.
Honestly, I like the new talent system. If there's one thing I'm confused about, though, it's how they seem to be completely re-designing warlocks. They've always been built around their DOTs, and that seems to be changing- at least for the Demonology and Destruction specs. Still, as they've said, everything is still unfinished, so I'll withhold any final judgements until I actually have the chance to try them out in the beta as opposed to just looking at them on paper. The thing i'm most psyched about, though,is how DK's are getting Corpse Explosion back! My favorite ability- with Army of the Dead being a close 2nd
This guy is pretty good. And I am really digging what he says. Also I do agree with most if what he says. But on one point he does contradict himself.Firstly he says this (about talents):This is the big one, and the truth is it is ultimately correct. You will have fewer choices. But you will have more choices that *matter*. One of the important philosophies of game design is that interesting choices are fun.But then he says this (about general abilities):Instead of having to click Raging Blow, we’ll just give it to you, because frankly if you skip it, you’re making a mistake (or you’re RPing a Fury warrior who has taken too many blows to the head). There are gaps in getting new abilities, especially at high level, because we don’t want players to have to have four rows of action bars to play their character. Again, that is just the blessing and curse of having a game with so many levels.So he's saying, "we want you to have interesting choices in talents, but we give you no choice in the general abilities you use. We give them to you and expect you to use them regardless.So it's adding in talent choices (which I like) and removing ability choices (which I do not like). I quite like having lots of abilities to chose from in combat. it makes it fun So Mr Ghostcrawler needs to think about things a touch more to make sure he's he's not giving with one hand and taking from the other (or in other words being a slight hypocrite)**********************A lot of people are saying (even in the comments here) why screw with the talent trees, leave them as be? I will tell you why I think they should be changed.The talent trees in vanilla/TBC/Wrath were very good. I liked the option of hybrid specs and a few different options in the trees. But the downside was 90% of the talents for each spec was a must take. So it was just pick a spec you like and blindly put in the talent point it says each level. And you get 5-10 (at max in wrath) talent points to fiddle with. In essence it worked. But it did allow combinations to be over powered or underpowered. And few in between. For all purposes though it sort of worked. Not perfect but ok. If you liked almost zero talent point choice.The Cata talent trees in my opinion are a total mess. The less said about them the better. Those shortened trees were pretty much each class/spec had one build. And there was literally zero room for customisation. Either you went the course and picked the exact same talent tree as every other person in your spec or you went different and got a spec that was supremely under powered. Zero choice. And at times also being forced to choose filler talents to get to other good ones. in an ideal world there would be zero filler talents cause they would all be interesting and good. But cata did not do this. A massive step backwards this is from the wrath talent trees.The Panderia talent choices. Not really a tree anymore. Pretty much the same thing as Diablo 3 is doing. Every so many levels pick one of 3 talents. This we all know by now. I really like this. And I really like Blizzard's reasoning about it. Do you want to be a tank that does a little more dps? Then pick Avatar or bladestorm instead of shockwave. But if you need the frontal cone stun then take shockwave. A lot more choice then the talent trees ever had. This also filters down to to boss fights and arenas. In good and not so good ways.In arenas: You won't know what abilities your opponents have. You can usually pick their spec by their buffs and equipped weapons. But in Panderia you won't know what exact talents they have. So you will have to make your arena spec in such a fashion to expect anything. Which I really like. This makes arenas a lot more interesting.Boss Fights: Yes you can have different abilities for the fights now. Which is good. And as Ghostcrawler said, some fights tent towards one ability choice over another. Avatar, Shockwave and Bladestorm will each work better in different fights. That is nice. The downside? People will ask "we want warrior tank with bladestorm" for example. People will not take classes anymore. They will look in their raid set up. And not say hmmm a warrior will do. They'll say we want 1x bladestorm, 1x killing spree, 2x vamperic dominance etc etc in the raid. This totally goes against the "bring the player and not thew class to raids" mantra they are pushing.So what is the solution to this? You make all the abilities just about as good as each other in terms of dps and functionality. Yes this requires very good balancing skills. And Blizzard's past balancing skills are questionable at best. But I have to agree less options does equal easier to balance all the combinations of those options. So hopefully Panderia is much better balanced.This boss issue also can lead into arena if people want their partners to have specific abilities. But it's not as worry some as for raiding. Cause most people have a 2nd PvP spec. This is assuming dual spec is still in Panderia.**********************Lastly the general abilities in Panderia. in Wrath you went and purchased them all. And it really felt nice to have all these options to use. Going up and buying all the different levels felt very good. It did nothing in terms of gameplay though. Having the ability self level up as the character does is the same thing. But just not as satisfying.And being told what abilities we must use (according to the above quote I made in this post) is just not cool. It's like Blizzard said "We will work the abilities everyone used in their max dps rotations" and anything that didn't cut the best mustard according to sites like Tankspot and ElitestJerks will get removed from the game. This really feels like what Blizzard is doing. And this is something I don't like. There are gaps in getting new abilities, especially at high level, because we don’t want players to have to have four rows of action bars to play their character. Again, that is just the blessing and curse of having a game with so many levels.Ghostcrawler saying this proves he does not get it. Which is surprising cause most of his writings show he does get it. So this little quote is very out of character for him. I've played every class a human can be. And played them a lot. And of all those classes/specs all bar one had 1-2 at max action bars. My Prot Warrior with engineering (for bombs, hand cannon and belt bombs all also on the action bar) and my raid "taunt this" macro and one on use trinket fits into 2.5 action bars. The standard one + the top left and a little of the top right. The rest of the top right one is filled with my favourite mounts. Every other class/spec I've used I hardly fill up 2 action bars. So saying you need 3-4 action bar rows for combat is just crazy. One of the less intelligent ideas/comments from Ghostcrawler. I think the number of abilities in Wrath and Cata were fine. People back in wrath days did complain bear tanks were severly lacking in the number of usable abilities. But Blizzard tried to fix this in cata. So it's not to bad. (continued in next post)
(Continued from previous post)My point? Don't take away the number of abilities each class has. Don't give us a lot of cool talent choices in one hand and take away all the good abilities in the other hand. People want more then the absolute minimum number of abilities for the max dps rotation. And as you know each patch (with the nerfs and buffs to classes) what the best spec and rotation always changes. So having those other abilities there is good.
Pretty much all of the original 'pick this because it makes sense' talents from the current trees are learned as you level depending on the spec you pick at level 10: Ghostwolves, Titan's Grip, Metamorph, Bestial Wrath, etc etc. They are still there, they just aren't part of the talent trees anymore.
I am happy with this new idea of talent tree but still I feel pity and injustice for few classes. They said about interesting choices but its feel like they are taking something from me.
...Going up and buying all the different levels felt very good. It did nothing in terms of gameplay though. Having the ability self level up as the character does is the same thing. But just not as satisfying.I personally think that buying each spell-rank (sometimes even more than a dozen) was pointless, expensive and non-sense.By the way, I also believe that learning the actual spell automatically is not fun and non "satisfying" at all.People want more then the absolute minimum number of abilities for the max dps rotation. And as you know each patch (with the nerfs and buffs to classes) what the best spec and rotation always changes. So having those other abilities there is good.First of all, you are speaking for yourself (as of course am I), so just don't think yourself as the people representative. Second, this writing of yours is quite pointless I fear:- Talking only about PvE in general, what's the point in having spells you will never use? None, I suppose. If I'm a fire mage, I will never miss having Arcane Blast on my cast-bar, since it has never been there (while playing fire, obviously). While I'm not referring (carrying on the mage class as an example) to most of the utility spells such as Frost Nova or Remove Curse (which are rightly considered "class spell" rather than "spec spells"), I truly can't see any situation when you can actually choose the spell to use in place of the spell already meant to be used: if I play fire, my main nuke is never going to be anything but Fireball (or Frostfire Bolt). - Also in PvP why should I ever want to use a spell for which I have an equivalent from my current spec? I think if I wanted to use another spell, I might want to consider to change spec.- So what's the point in having currently useless spells? Just because it feels good? Just to have it in your spellbook? To see your cast bar full of different colours? I don't see it. You want to use another school of spell? Change spec. (I understand the mage is a bit extreme as an example, since its spells are quite streamlined depending on the spec).What they need to do, and it's quite challenging, is to balance the specs and the talents so that you have free choices (which is not easy).And as you know each patch (with the nerfs and buffs to classes) what the best spec and rotation always changes. So having those other abilities there is good. This is simply false: the rotation can rarely change with patches update (not expansions), but you are really unlikely to start using a spell you were not before (in fact, you are never going to do so, unless they tried to fix some major problem with the class).From what you said, I (as a fire mage) should be afraid of loosing Arcane Blast from my cast bar, because I might some day need it as a part of my fire rotation...In addiction, should someone argue that this is really based on PvE, I'd say that you shouldn't have a rotation in PvP... So it's adding in talent choices (which I like) and removing ability choices (which I do not like). Really, we cant' consider the spells listed on the official page as all of them; it's just not possible if you look at some classes. Some spells are missing, some are to be added as brand knew: we can't say (for example) that fire mages are loosing Blast Wave just because it was a talent since the previous update of the MoP talent calculator and now it's missing; it's all work in progress. So, from this prospective, how can you say we are loosing abilities choices?On the other hand, as I wrote above, have you an actual full choice of spell when you choose a spec (as the system stands today)? No. You are using certain spells, and not thinking about what to use and what not.I see, what you meant, even if it might not look so: the point is that the loosing of“ability choices“ cannot be confirmed on the one hand at the moment, and, on the other, I still can't see why you should ever find yourself in the need of using a spell from a different spec, which is not a utility "class spell" available to all specs, when you have an equivalent/something-else to compensate it from your current spec.
This article got me thinking and one thing I think would be great is if we no longer had pre-made specs, but rather chose our moves out of a max number, kind of like Guild Wars, so we could have a decent number of important choices to make and could make hybrids or pure builds work. As GC says, picking a 5% buff to one stat or another is boring, but picking new abilities is fun! I know there might be some who would say this would lead right back to too many choices and the possibility of cookie-cutter builds, but I disagree. I think that this would allow for the customization people are crying for, without the boredom of the old "this buff vs that buff" choices in other talent trees. Having a tank/healer hybrid would be crazy fun. Having a Rogue who was good at initiating like subtlety but focused mostly on poisons for dps would be fun too. Having a truly balanced druid who could perform most roles on the fly (to a lesser effect) would be quite compelling too. Especially when fights are hard enough to kill a few members. And there would be no wasted talents. Everything would be either a pure build pick, (as some elitists would prefer) or a hybrid pick (which has been proven to be just as useful in the hands of a skilled player). So the real question is back to the synergy matrix question. I say that there is little that could not be fixed with a few number crunches. If the moves are built attuned for pure builds like they are today, but we allowed for choice, then we would have at worst the current builds as the "OP" synergies. The key would be to make every move for a tree cause the character to be more effective in the role of that tree. An off tank prot warrior with whirlwind might help with the dps but he would suffer some tankiness he would have gotten from Shield Block for instance. A Prot pally with holy light might be capable to heal himself or the healer in a pinch, but would have to use one of his move slots on it. I fully admit this would be yet another huge shift, and one we are probably not yet ready to handle, but I feel that ultimately it is a great idea that deserves at least some further looking into.
BaelrocI lol'd.In response to the article, while most of it does ring true, some of seems overcritical (I'm pretty sure at least SOME theorycrafters are actually trying to cookie cut the @#$% out of this, for instance, in answer 3).5. "I like being better than noobs."Really? I don't actually see the argument THAT much.
/yawn Still just killing time until SWTOR Early Access starts ...
I've often though that the only way WoW will come down is if it destroys itself and this is a classic example of how blizzard thinks that this new talent system is going to fix things while yet again ignoring that people are still complaining. This is not the fix, this is just the same rhetoric blizzard said a year ago and they will end up again changing things. Frankly I loved the old system and if people want to use a cookie cutter build then so what, add to the system then default builds for those who don't want to screw with there talents.