"Your point about an 'in-house' testing team I cannot answer, though I suspect that Blizzard has a good reason why they prefer to let these things go Live even though they know that there will be bugs."Ding. Winner.I also bring up the point of using the PTR. Why have PTR at all if they won't use it on such competitive encounters? Then guys like me would not be able to dispute the out come of events. Sorry I am competitive, I like rule books and I like fair competition. Does such an encounter strike such urgency that it just can not wait? Hasnt blizzard held up progression before with not releasing content? How come the Lich King himself was held up and the Ice Crown Citadel first floor access only acceptable? Yet Blizzard has such urgency to place this boss ahead of its time only to be butchered on a live server with a quickness while being "Fixed". I do not understand some of the logic in any of this but thanks for trying to take the time to explain or make excuses for the unfolded events.Odd's are sure one of them top 2% guilds would have got the first kill the outcome was an eventuality but for god's sakes let it be settled on a Live server after it's tested and tested more then put on a PTR then placed on a live server.Its a small and humble and more or less a legit request! Is such a request really an afront to all that is BLizzard and its fan base? Hardly.Congrats to the winners.PS: I report bugs all the time I am sure my server GM hates my guts or loves me. I havent figured it out yet:) I think I was amoung the first to recognize shammies handy work with Unstable Afflicition and double dipping the heal. Sure enough several weeks later it is finally being recognised.
@Dottey -- I read the entire thread from beginning to end, and to summarize, I must say that you are really looking at this topic rather in a narrow-minded way. Let me explain why.I believe it's safe to figure that you have never done any sort of computer programming because if you had, you likely would know why the testing of the encounters by these top world guilds is necessary over and beyond Blizzard's own internal testing. You can be assured that Blizzard is most certainly doing their own testing, but there's only so many ways a developer can test their own product. For one, the developers won't play the game the same way the players do. Every person plays World of Warcraft in his/her own way. The developers have their own rotation in DPS for example, and Blizzard knows how the encounter is supposed to work so they know where to move, what action to take, etc., so it's not likely they'd be able to think of ALL the ways others may screw it up. After all, you are expecting the fight to work flawlessly, and only through testing ALL possible errors in the encounter would this even be possible.Separate from that though, Blizzard has a strong desire to keep certain major boss fights for the best of the best. The PTR isn't really intended to be a beta testing platform for Blizzard, though it could be used for that if they so choose...it's not their choice to do so at this point. PTR is more of an opportunity for people to review upcoming changes in the user interface, general game play, and sometimes content that Blizzard plans to make to the game and provide users an easy way to submit their feedback to Blizzard so those changes can be revised and improved. Once Blizzard has decided they have made the changes appropriate for a patch, it's released. It's not really intended to show all new encounters that will be available and for them to be tested out. Otherwise, there wouldn't be nearly as much of a challenge when it launched on Live because everybody who tested it would know how the fights work, and for guilds of this caliber, it would diminish the fun factor of the encounter as well.I commend Blizzard on monitoring the progress of the guild and watching for the ways the event was being done. Only by seeing actual players playing the game can you truly test a product thoroughly. The players will make their best guesses at the encounter, not knowing anything about it, and can reveal things that maybe don't work that should (or vice versa). In addition, Blizzard knows their vision of the encounters and can see things that work and things that don't as people play the encounter. Blizzard may want the fight to go a certain way but since the players did it differently, they need to tweak something. Blizzard knows they aren't perfect and realize they need to also consider the data they see as the encounter is done in Live by actual players. I think it's rather impressive that Blizzard could hotfix the issues that Paragon discovered as they attempted the encounter, and not cause issues to the server in general by doing so. That takes a highly qualified team of developers to execute properly. I agree with the many others who commented here: Blizzard has no need to fix what's not broken--specifically, the process they have used to monitor encounters will allow them to most quickly resolve any problems they find, making the encounters work as both Blizzard and we would expect, when we get to them ourselves.Unless I've missed something (and I'm fairly confident I have not), Blizzard did not make content changes to the Sinestra encounter. They strictly worked to resolve "issues" that were discovered with Paragon's attempts at the encounter. So the "rules" (that you keep going back to) did not change. The way the fight was supposed to go did not change. What changed was errors in the encounter were corrected so they could not be exploited (if beneficial to the players) nor inhibitive (if negatively impacting).I believe Paragon put forth the time and effort to make their encounter with Sinestra a success. Despite the flaws they revealed in the process, they endured and have earned the right to claim World First in defeating Sinestra. You may feel the victory is tainted, and you're entitled to the opinion, but just know that your opinion on this matter is clearly in the minority of those reading and responding to you in this thread.
"I believe it's safe to figure that you have never done any sort of computer programming because if you had"Sorry I stopped reading there. I am a web programmer and developer so I understand bug fixes quite well. Everything else you said is more or less an excuse to me. Game Design and programming is not magic its quite logical and quite easy to identify issues with a system. Especially when proper procedure and tools are used. Its not as hard as you think it is.If something is not ready for prme time do not put it on prime time. Thats all I am more or less saying.Vanilla WOW Molten Core first kill took almost 8 months, BC almost 4 months on IIlidan. Kel Thuzad almost 3 months, LichKing almost 3 months barring the period the 2nd floor was not accesible. Sinestra... A little less than 4.5 week's for Sinestra. Seriously? Correct me if I am wrong as those are just kinda recollections. In Molten Core players respected Ragnaros and he was regarded as the most difficult boss in the history of gaming.But a little less than 4.5 weeks for first end boss of Cata? Narf!Some of Paragon had to be wearing greens with only a handful of heroics. Pretty leet group there. But you guys are going to sit there and tell me it was legit because of this and that, the environment, the development team this or that, ad nausia. Phea! If any of them guys were wearing greens during the encounter it should not have been possible just due to the sheer scaling. How the majority find this acceptable or not questionable whats so ever I will never understand. H: Sinestra Jan 20, 2011 15:06 1 1 1 15000.00 / 15000.00 Cata Launch December 7th.I had enough of this conversation, its pretty clear to me no matter what I say it will be matched with some sort of clandestine excuse. The very 2% of that top base of players post and read this website quite often so I realise I am not going to easily make friends for discrediting a first world boss kill. It's futile for me to continue this conversation.To boot this so called Hubris of Blizzard not paying attention to its base is pretty clear. What is clear is this 2% of top players were listened to far more than the Casual players as it is highly evident that a vast majority of Players are finding even Dungeon encounters to hard. I guess so long as that upper 2% are happy that is all that matters as it is also highly evident Blizzard consulted with the top 2% and did not consider the over all base. If they had the encounter's would have been more broadly scaled and Ghost Crawler would have never had to make a punishing post "Dungeons are Hard". All the evidence is pointing towards favortism I am sorry you guys do not see that.I am not buying into it.If something looks like ____, and smells like _____ odd's are it is ______
1: OK show me the website that shows the exact gear all members of Paragon were wearing at the time of Sinestra's fall.I would very much like to see that.2: Congrats you can do maths. Cata been out for 6 weeks and here we are with first world boss kill in less than 4.5 weeks of launch. When historically it has takin much much longer with regards to past Raid bosses.And now I am trolling...I am sorry you would make a very bad detective but when yo put A, B and C and D together as the points brought up in this very thread regarding real time edits, the raid itself communicating with blizzard while under gong the encounter, and the boss not be tested enough nor even put on PTR it smells of some foul play.OK. and now I am a troll. Hubris sucks in more ways than one.LOL.
Yes and if everyone disagrees with you maybe your wrong ? Don't know about you but I wouldnt consider paragon as the same as 90% of the player base, they are many many times better than the rest of the player base. Also in professional sport they talk about changing the rules all the time( look at the conversations going on in the golf world over two players getting disqualified over their ball being replaced millimeters in the wrong place and they got kicked out of the competition as the rules have that as a punishment)I wouldn't consider paragon's world first of a boss that 99% of the players base will never kill (at any teir in cataclysm) tainted. They were fixing the encounter during it however considering what blizzard did to ensidia last year I can only assume they punish everyone equally.I cannot make you change your mind, I'm starting to believe that nothing could do that
"Yes and if everyone disagrees with you maybe your wrong ?"No, maybe just taking a different approach in observation while in a room containing people with blinders on.How or why should I expect that 2% player base to agree with me? I don't but its not going to prevent me from looking at the situation objectively and making a few logical conclusions. I could probably walk right on over to Blizzards forums and find playes that are casual players that would very well agree with me if presented with the happenings and facts of this world kill.Sinestra is a victim of foul play. Everything thus far points to it.Here you go...30 pages of barf. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/835278-Lady-Sinestra-25-Heroic-World-First-Kill-by-ParagonWhy is there such conflict? I have pointed them out here they are pointed out there. If blizzard didnt have a history of changing and editing bosses during live encounters this wouldnt happen as much am I right?PS: I am still waiting for what each raid member was wearing at the time of this kill.
Diviil from Paragon...An ace Warlock much like myself."And they did have good interest in fixing stuff fast to avoid complete embarrassment which would have been us beating a totally incomplete boss."http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/835278-Lady-Sinestra-25-Heroic-World-First-Kill-by-Paragon/page33Nuff said. I rest my case.Seems even a member of Paragon is more or less agreeing with what I have said here today...
Treskol you are so fail. Lulz...The Discusson is over. You can attempt to debate me in the next thread I decide to take interest in.
(Psst.I thought it wasn't right. Thanks :D)
Sometimes I wish Wowhead had an Ignore button...Honestly, it sounds more like Blizzard was doing their job. It's too bad they can't field the million-and-one GMs it would take to do that level of following for everyone - to "make it equal" as Mister Outrage up there is saying. But if they tried, the game would cost a heck of a lot more to keep going, and the players would be footing much of that cost.The impression that Wowhead is a site used only by hard-core raiders is...kind of stupid. It's not a raid resource site, it's a general (*!@#ing awesome!) resource for the entire game.Of the people replying to the troll, I think all of us are pretty much casual players and not "hard core raiders." What supports my thought here is the fact that they replied several times. As did the troll. Clearly, the troll is a casual player too. Otherwise he would have been getting penalized by his hard core guild for wasting time on posts that he could use for raid prep and or raid participation. At least, that's how I understand some of the serious raiding guilds prefer to apportion their time.All in all, troll's posts showed an increasing amount of troll's personality: he feels entitled to not an opinion but "my word is law," he is not very good at recognizing the difference between personal attacks and differing opinions, and the more you debate with him, the more he devolves into a sulky teenager sort of attitude.Kudos to you guys who replied to him and didn't lose your cool. I sure wouldn't have been so nice.
Dear Dottey,I've read this thread from the start and all i've seen is you being a stubborn jackass.If i do recall, you did this same thing in Hyjal trade chat, and when you pvp'd. You would always argued with people, Unreasonably. To be quite honest, You've always been stubborn and unwilling to accept anyone else's answer.And I beat you in arenas.Sincerely, SapplingTHAT guy.