Well lets just say we have a fundamental disagreement in competitive philosophy.That's just the thing, though. You aren't arguing philosophy. You're stuck in the concrete definition of "sportsmanship" and "competition". You're bringing up real world sports matches and trying to make it stick to a virtual game that (as of yet) cannot possibly come even close to that definition. The closest thing is pvp. This whole thread has been about pve. Your point would definitely be more valid if the raid boss was controlled by a separate player or even a separate team. As it is, it is a computer construct. There is no "red team" or "blue team" in pve.You keep coming back to the point about how this wouldn't fly in RL, and you're right. It would suck ass for the refs running around saying, "Actually, no. You guys can't do that. We thought we had the rules down...we didn't. Our bad. We have to play this way from now on." The problem with this is RL sports have had these rules for years and years. When a rule doesn't work it is looked at and the implemented usually the next year. I'll use American football as an example. I remember when coaches were not allowed to challenge any decision made by the refs. Eventually, it was found to be more competitive and actually better for the game to allow challenges. So sport do take the past in to account and will make "fixes" when the rules need to be updated. But that's not what happened in this case at all. WoW wasn't a sport in the sense you keep thinking it is. Blizz wasn't running around giving hotfixes because rules weren't being followed, they were giving the fixes to make the game enjoyable and playable for people who enjoy raiding. You're looking at this as if it's a black and white issue and keep thinking you're being trolled. You aren't being trolled (at least, at the time of my writing) and I'm certainly not attacking or trolling you. You see this as black and white, when in fact the rest of us are operating under the assumption that there are so many variables that there's more grey than black and white in the world...of warcraft.Sidenote: sorry for the delay in posting. Only got halfway finished writing when I went out for chinese food for my mother's birthday. It was awesome.
"Your point about an 'in-house' testing team I cannot answer, though I suspect that Blizzard has a good reason why they prefer to let these things go Live even though they know that there will be bugs."Ding. Winner.I also bring up the point of using the PTR. Why have PTR at all if they won't use it on such competitive encounters? Then guys like me would not be able to dispute the out come of events. Sorry I am competitive, I like rule books and I like fair competition. Does such an encounter strike such urgency that it just can not wait? Hasnt blizzard held up progression before with not releasing content? How come the Lich King himself was held up and the Ice Crown Citadel first floor access only acceptable? Yet Blizzard has such urgency to place this boss ahead of its time only to be butchered on a live server with a quickness while being "Fixed". I do not understand some of the logic in any of this but thanks for trying to take the time to explain or make excuses for the unfolded events.Odd's are sure one of them top 2% guilds would have got the first kill the outcome was an eventuality but for god's sakes let it be settled on a Live server after it's tested and tested more then put on a PTR then placed on a live server.Its a small and humble and more or less a legit request! Is such a request really an afront to all that is BLizzard and its fan base? Hardly.Congrats to the winners.PS: I report bugs all the time I am sure my server GM hates my guts or loves me. I havent figured it out yet:) I think I was amoung the first to recognize shammies handy work with Unstable Afflicition and double dipping the heal. Sure enough several weeks later it is finally being recognised.
@Dottey -- I read the entire thread from beginning to end, and to summarize, I must say that you are really looking at this topic rather in a narrow-minded way. Let me explain why.I believe it's safe to figure that you have never done any sort of computer programming because if you had, you likely would know why the testing of the encounters by these top world guilds is necessary over and beyond Blizzard's own internal testing. You can be assured that Blizzard is most certainly doing their own testing, but there's only so many ways a developer can test their own product. For one, the developers won't play the game the same way the players do. Every person plays World of Warcraft in his/her own way. The developers have their own rotation in DPS for example, and Blizzard knows how the encounter is supposed to work so they know where to move, what action to take, etc., so it's not likely they'd be able to think of ALL the ways others may screw it up. After all, you are expecting the fight to work flawlessly, and only through testing ALL possible errors in the encounter would this even be possible.Separate from that though, Blizzard has a strong desire to keep certain major boss fights for the best of the best. The PTR isn't really intended to be a beta testing platform for Blizzard, though it could be used for that if they so choose...it's not their choice to do so at this point. PTR is more of an opportunity for people to review upcoming changes in the user interface, general game play, and sometimes content that Blizzard plans to make to the game and provide users an easy way to submit their feedback to Blizzard so those changes can be revised and improved. Once Blizzard has decided they have made the changes appropriate for a patch, it's released. It's not really intended to show all new encounters that will be available and for them to be tested out. Otherwise, there wouldn't be nearly as much of a challenge when it launched on Live because everybody who tested it would know how the fights work, and for guilds of this caliber, it would diminish the fun factor of the encounter as well.I commend Blizzard on monitoring the progress of the guild and watching for the ways the event was being done. Only by seeing actual players playing the game can you truly test a product thoroughly. The players will make their best guesses at the encounter, not knowing anything about it, and can reveal things that maybe don't work that should (or vice versa). In addition, Blizzard knows their vision of the encounters and can see things that work and things that don't as people play the encounter. Blizzard may want the fight to go a certain way but since the players did it differently, they need to tweak something. Blizzard knows they aren't perfect and realize they need to also consider the data they see as the encounter is done in Live by actual players. I think it's rather impressive that Blizzard could hotfix the issues that Paragon discovered as they attempted the encounter, and not cause issues to the server in general by doing so. That takes a highly qualified team of developers to execute properly. I agree with the many others who commented here: Blizzard has no need to fix what's not broken--specifically, the process they have used to monitor encounters will allow them to most quickly resolve any problems they find, making the encounters work as both Blizzard and we would expect, when we get to them ourselves.Unless I've missed something (and I'm fairly confident I have not), Blizzard did not make content changes to the Sinestra encounter. They strictly worked to resolve "issues" that were discovered with Paragon's attempts at the encounter. So the "rules" (that you keep going back to) did not change. The way the fight was supposed to go did not change. What changed was errors in the encounter were corrected so they could not be exploited (if beneficial to the players) nor inhibitive (if negatively impacting).I believe Paragon put forth the time and effort to make their encounter with Sinestra a success. Despite the flaws they revealed in the process, they endured and have earned the right to claim World First in defeating Sinestra. You may feel the victory is tainted, and you're entitled to the opinion, but just know that your opinion on this matter is clearly in the minority of those reading and responding to you in this thread.
"I believe it's safe to figure that you have never done any sort of computer programming because if you had"Sorry I stopped reading there. I am a web programmer and developer so I understand bug fixes quite well. Everything else you said is more or less an excuse to me. Game Design and programming is not magic its quite logical and quite easy to identify issues with a system. Especially when proper procedure and tools are used. Its not as hard as you think it is.If something is not ready for prme time do not put it on prime time. Thats all I am more or less saying.Vanilla WOW Molten Core first kill took almost 8 months, BC almost 4 months on IIlidan. Kel Thuzad almost 3 months, LichKing almost 3 months barring the period the 2nd floor was not accesible. Sinestra... A little less than 4.5 week's for Sinestra. Seriously? Correct me if I am wrong as those are just kinda recollections. In Molten Core players respected Ragnaros and he was regarded as the most difficult boss in the history of gaming.But a little less than 4.5 weeks for first end boss of Cata? Narf!Some of Paragon had to be wearing greens with only a handful of heroics. Pretty leet group there. But you guys are going to sit there and tell me it was legit because of this and that, the environment, the development team this or that, ad nausia. Phea! If any of them guys were wearing greens during the encounter it should not have been possible just due to the sheer scaling. How the majority find this acceptable or not questionable whats so ever I will never understand. H: Sinestra Jan 20, 2011 15:06 1 1 1 15000.00 / 15000.00 Cata Launch December 7th.I had enough of this conversation, its pretty clear to me no matter what I say it will be matched with some sort of clandestine excuse. The very 2% of that top base of players post and read this website quite often so I realise I am not going to easily make friends for discrediting a first world boss kill. It's futile for me to continue this conversation.To boot this so called Hubris of Blizzard not paying attention to its base is pretty clear. What is clear is this 2% of top players were listened to far more than the Casual players as it is highly evident that a vast majority of Players are finding even Dungeon encounters to hard. I guess so long as that upper 2% are happy that is all that matters as it is also highly evident Blizzard consulted with the top 2% and did not consider the over all base. If they had the encounter's would have been more broadly scaled and Ghost Crawler would have never had to make a punishing post "Dungeons are Hard". All the evidence is pointing towards favortism I am sorry you guys do not see that.I am not buying into it.If something looks like ____, and smells like _____ odd's are it is ______
Sorry I stopped reading there. I am a web programmer and developer so I understand bug fixes quite well.If you had continued reading, you would realise that that is not what PackinMySh0vel said. You do not understand searching for bugs. Fixing bugs is easy. Finding them is not so much, especially when you designed the system in which you're trying to look for them.Anyway, you joined one day ago and have only really posted in this topic, so I'm denouncing you as a troll.(PS: Cataclysm has been out for six weeks.)(PPS: I don't think 'clandestine' means what you think it means. And it is "Ad nauseam". And you're making assumptions on Paragon's gear level, when you could check it for yourself if you wanted to? Lazy, pathetic troll.)(PPPS: It's funny how you've said "I've had enough of this conversation" and you have now edited that post 7 times)
It's important to note that if you leave your guild and join a new one your reputation with the previous guild is removed and your reputation with the new guild will be set to friendlyFalse. It is reset to Neutral. I can confirm this from experience as it has taken me this week to get it up to Friendly.
1: OK show me the website that shows the exact gear all members of Paragon were wearing at the time of Sinestra's fall.I would very much like to see that.2: Congrats you can do maths. Cata been out for 6 weeks and here we are with first world boss kill in less than 4.5 weeks of launch. When historically it has takin much much longer with regards to past Raid bosses.And now I am trolling...I am sorry you would make a very bad detective but when yo put A, B and C and D together as the points brought up in this very thread regarding real time edits, the raid itself communicating with blizzard while under gong the encounter, and the boss not be tested enough nor even put on PTR it smells of some foul play.OK. and now I am a troll. Hubris sucks in more ways than one.LOL.
Yes and if everyone disagrees with you maybe your wrong ? Don't know about you but I wouldnt consider paragon as the same as 90% of the player base, they are many many times better than the rest of the player base. Also in professional sport they talk about changing the rules all the time( look at the conversations going on in the golf world over two players getting disqualified over their ball being replaced millimeters in the wrong place and they got kicked out of the competition as the rules have that as a punishment)I wouldn't consider paragon's world first of a boss that 99% of the players base will never kill (at any teir in cataclysm) tainted. They were fixing the encounter during it however considering what blizzard did to ensidia last year I can only assume they punish everyone equally.I cannot make you change your mind, I'm starting to believe that nothing could do that
"Yes and if everyone disagrees with you maybe your wrong ?"No, maybe just taking a different approach in observation while in a room containing people with blinders on.How or why should I expect that 2% player base to agree with me? I don't but its not going to prevent me from looking at the situation objectively and making a few logical conclusions. I could probably walk right on over to Blizzards forums and find playes that are casual players that would very well agree with me if presented with the happenings and facts of this world kill.Sinestra is a victim of foul play. Everything thus far points to it.Here you go...30 pages of barf. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/835278-Lady-Sinestra-25-Heroic-World-First-Kill-by-ParagonWhy is there such conflict? I have pointed them out here they are pointed out there. If blizzard didnt have a history of changing and editing bosses during live encounters this wouldnt happen as much am I right?PS: I am still waiting for what each raid member was wearing at the time of this kill.
Diviil from Paragon...An ace Warlock much like myself."And they did have good interest in fixing stuff fast to avoid complete embarrassment which would have been us beating a totally incomplete boss."http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/835278-Lady-Sinestra-25-Heroic-World-First-Kill-by-Paragon/page33Nuff said. I rest my case.Seems even a member of Paragon is more or less agreeing with what I have said here today...
Paragons kill was predetermined is just a blunt way of putting it.You can't put something over the internet and then claim it was said in a certain way.Sorry, that's just a desperate excuse.I am kool with that whatever, but now we are far from what fair competition is and what is being projected and sold to the masses as a world first arent we?I'm gunna go bang my head on a brick wall, brb.I am almost 100% certain that if any other guild, whether they were in the top 2% of guilds or not, that Blizzard would have been closely watching the encounter and fixing any bugs that were encountered during the fight. This is both competitive and fair to all guilds. The only other information that we are given is that Paragon were actively reporting bugs in the encounter which I will bet a penny to a pound that not many guilds outside of the top 2% would do.You seem to have taken not getting World First personally. These guys not only set records in this game, they drastically improve it for everyone else, with their bug reporting in every single new boss, etc etc.Which is the basic and fundamental arguement I have raised here regarding Sinestra's fall.There is a cloud on the kill and thats a fact.Sinestra died. FactA cloud on the kill. An opinion.You need to stop talking like you're god, this thread even proves how many people disagree with you.A cloud on the kill would be Paragon going in, spamming Dark Simulacrum and collecting lewts.This shows how adaptable they are, and how honest they are. This kill shows them in a very good light indeed.A cloud on a kill was Lich King 10 Ensidia with the Saronite Bombs when they were banned.I would wager that Paragon actually had to work harder for the kill had it not been adjsuted and so forthA lot of the bugs were bugs that made it easier.I just wish BLizzard would keep a perspective of accross the board equality for all players.You have still yet to say how it isn't equal champ.Hint: It is.I love the element of surprise as well along with adapting but making adjustments on a live server during an encounter is just odd to me.I do not like the idea that the encounter was debuged while on a live server and currently being raided. The part of my argument you ignored; You're still to answer to how the differs from;IllidanKil'jaedinLich KingAlgalonAnub'arakin the fact they were all untested btw.No, maybe just taking a different approach in observation while in a room containing people with blinders on.Nice ad homieum broHow or why should I expect that 2% player base to agree with me? What makes you think that me or anyone else in this thread is a 2% of the playbase thats killed Heroic Cho'gall or whichever Heroic boss?I don't but its not going to prevent me from looking at the situation objectively and making a few logical conclusions.Logical conclusions = put it on PTR? Nah, that's not logical, that takes the fun out of the game for these top guilds. They won't want to play live when they have already done it all on PTR. Analogy Time: This would be like saying to the Casual - Raiding guilds; we're changing the raid lock mechanic from every Tuesday / Wednesday to two days after the first trash kill. It would leave them out in the cold. Why would Blizzard leave these 2% out in the cold?I could probably walk right on over to Blizzards forums and find playes that are casual players that would very well agree with me if presented with the happenings and facts of this world kill.What? Again, whatever makes you think I'm even remotely hardcore? What you really mean is 'I'll find one dude who didn't know this happened with every single !@#$ing last raid tier boss and then claim victory'You seem to think Wowhead is full of hardcore raiding people and that's why no-one has agreed with you, when really it's because you haven't provided any real proof other than 'Hey guise, Paragon shouldn't deserve it, Blizzard helped!'Sinestra is a victim of foul play. Everything thus far points to it....What? You're now accusing Blizzard and Paragon of cheating? This really is making me feel like you're a troll.Sinestra had a bug what Blizzard didn't know about. They fixed it. Wow. I really see what you mean.And they did have good interest in fixing stuff fast to avoid complete embarrassment which would have been us beating a totally incomplete boss.No. You've said time and time again that they shouldn't have hot fixed it, because it takes away the competition for whatever reason.That's basically saying ' Blizzard hot fixed a boss fast to stop us killing it easily', which would add more competition, no?
Treskol you are so fail. Lulz...The Discusson is over. You can attempt to debate me in the next thread I decide to take interest in.
Treskol you are so fail. Lulz...Nice ad homieum broThe Discusson is over.Yep. Not responding to any of my points means it is.You can attempt to debate me in the next thread I decide to take interest in.Attempt implies I failed. Also, this isn't a personal attack,you have been beaten by superior logic.
Yer trolling me.Like I said sports matches do not change rules or make adjustments to the game or the field during a sport event.Thats just a simple fact.Anyways have a good day...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_ruleThe entire Oakland Raiders NFL football team would like to disagree with you on this one.
I lost an argument in this thread so I'll use ad homieum to make me look cool.Fixed that up for ya.
(Psst.I thought it wasn't right. Thanks :D)
Sometimes I wish Wowhead had an Ignore button...Honestly, it sounds more like Blizzard was doing their job. It's too bad they can't field the million-and-one GMs it would take to do that level of following for everyone - to "make it equal" as Mister Outrage up there is saying. But if they tried, the game would cost a heck of a lot more to keep going, and the players would be footing much of that cost.The impression that Wowhead is a site used only by hard-core raiders is...kind of stupid. It's not a raid resource site, it's a general (*!@#ing awesome!) resource for the entire game.Of the people replying to the troll, I think all of us are pretty much casual players and not "hard core raiders." What supports my thought here is the fact that they replied several times. As did the troll. Clearly, the troll is a casual player too. Otherwise he would have been getting penalized by his hard core guild for wasting time on posts that he could use for raid prep and or raid participation. At least, that's how I understand some of the serious raiding guilds prefer to apportion their time.All in all, troll's posts showed an increasing amount of troll's personality: he feels entitled to not an opinion but "my word is law," he is not very good at recognizing the difference between personal attacks and differing opinions, and the more you debate with him, the more he devolves into a sulky teenager sort of attitude.Kudos to you guys who replied to him and didn't lose your cool. I sure wouldn't have been so nice.
Dear Dottey,I've read this thread from the start and all i've seen is you being a stubborn jackass.If i do recall, you did this same thing in Hyjal trade chat, and when you pvp'd. You would always argued with people, Unreasonably. To be quite honest, You've always been stubborn and unwilling to accept anyone else's answer.And I beat you in arenas.Sincerely, SapplingTHAT guy.