Dottey, you forgot something: Blizzard always did the same with hotfixing bugs in really hard bossfights. They did the same in WotLK on world firsts, they did the same in BC and perhaps even in vanilla.
Yer trolling me.You are taking my quotes using them out of context, and abridging my finished statements.Look dude...Maybe in your world it's OK to change things as they go and make excuses using the past as a reference.Blizzard chooses to do business the way it does and your arguments more or less supports thier vision of competition.Yes Historically Blizzard has always done business this way and IMHO its not healthy for true competition.From my point of view changing an encounter on the fly during a live event is not acceptable for true competition.Especially in light of all the real time things Blizzard can now do ingame and have PTR Servers in Place with Cataclysm! It all makes for the question of why not take advantage of these new systems to keep Competition what it is? Competitive. Then maybe guys like me would not point out flaws to discredit victor's of ingame events.Like I said sports matches do not change rules or make adjustments to the game or the field during a sport event.Thats just a simple fact.Anyways have a good day...
Obviously you are not reading what I am saying and what you are reading you take out of context and even misquot to some exhistential point that has little merit to what true competition is.Obviously.You have to respond to my claims before you call anyone else a trollAnd yes it is very much like a sports match. It has an audience, these events have players and these events have referee's and the out come is news breaking.The biggest difference, is the referees don't make the rules, they enforce them. Blizzard do both.Hey if Blizzard chooses not to polish it's encounters before an event takes place thats thier business. But it does invite skepticism by the masses whether you like it or not.This has happened, as I have said at least three times, with a helluva lot of bosses. Why moan now? As for the polishing, you know that with the ~15 bosses they've added, a new boss with no PTR was always going to be buggy. They knew it. They don't watch them attempts for fun, them guys are serious developers that help a guild with some bugs. And this 'skepticism for the masses', I hear so many people echoing your statements in this thread....Yes I think PTR is important, yes I think all encounters should be on PTR before a live release.It shouldn't and it isn't. If it was, the top guilds would join PTR and then quit the game. They'd have to test with sub-par guilds, and Blizzard would have a confidence issue with them. They probably wouldn't report the bugs, and when you got to the fight and it was a mess, you'd be more angry then than now, surely?You do not think so? Thats fine I do not care.Then why are you still responding?You are taking my quotes using them out of context, and abridging my finished statements.Goshad time ^.^Like?Maybe in your world it's OK to change things as they go and make excuses using the past as a reference.....What? It is. We learn from the mistakes of the past to build a better future. I have never actually used the past as an excuse, but as a learning curve. I understand perfectly why Blizzard hotfix it, even if you don't, which is evidently the case.If you've ever listened to these top raiding guilds, you'd know they get frustrated with Blizzard, but they also greatly appreciate the work they put in to make it right, because they know it could be much, much worse.Yes Historically Blizzard has always done business this way and IMHO its not healthy for true competition.True competition being what? If Blizzard have always done this, then it obviously works or else it would have been changed.Why fix something that isn't broken?Especially in light of all the real time things Blizzard can now do ingame and have PTR Servers in Place with Cataclysm!PTR isn't exclusive with Cataclysm. It was in WotLK. It all makes for the question of why not take advantage of these new systems to keep Competition what it is? Competitive.They aren't new.They do take advantage of these systems.They don't fully rely on it.Like how players don't rely on Gearscore in WotLK (or the good ones anyway), it's a tool, a useful tool, but it has flaws.As for the competition bit, it is competitive, Paragon said this was hardest tier of raiding they have done, and hard is what they want. Hard keeps it competitive.Like I said sports matches do not change rules or make adjustments to the game or the field during a sport event.Thats just a simple fact.The biggest difference, is the referees don't make the rules, they enforce them. Blizzard do both.Before you say, I'm hugely into sports, so my knowledge isn't really debatable in that respect.Anyways have a good day...I think somebody's taken this as a personal assault, which it isn't.
WOa!"It shouldn't and it isn't. If it was, the top guilds would join PTR and then quit the game. They'd have to test with sub-par guilds, and Blizzard would have a confidence issue with them."PTR is PTR. It's rehersal dude. There is a difference.They would quit the game? LOL really you know this? Cuz those uber supreme 2% of the player base has that much power on Blizz?Then poor BLizzard would... OMG have to test with sub par guilds?You are wrong on all accounts of that statement.And yes you do relie on the past as noted in your previous posts of other boss encounters. My argument Blizz now has the tools and they didnt use them.
PTR is PTR. It's rehersal dude. There is a difference.I know. But why would they bother playing when they can do it all on PTR? Marketing Sinestra, like Algalon, is a clever way Blizzard keep them playing.They would quit the game? LOL really you know this? Cuz those uber supreme 2% of the player base has that much power on Blizz?Then poor BLizzard would... OMG have to test with sub par guilds?They have more than the 98% of the other player base.Why?Blizzard respect and admire these players. Blizzard's respect gets these players a long way. Lets think about it. Your tickets take about a day to get a respond to, right?They got theirs back almost instantly.Not only that, they get privileges you can't, Blizzcon free tickets, paid to play certain tournaments, etc, etc. These 2% of 'uber supreme players' don't have power over Blizzard, they work as equals, volunteers of their work that they can't access.You are wrong on all accounts of that statement.You have been wrong on all accounts in so many parts of this thread that I wouldn't count this as a victory because of one statement.
Well lets just say we have a fundamental disagreement in competitive philosophy.I do not care about that top 2% getting spoiled by Blizzard it is irrelevant to the topic.As far as treating them like gold it is money wasted especially since they would just up and leave and have no loyalty as you claim. I do not think Blizzard should be worried about some 200 spoiled brat players with no loyalty, while having a subscriber base of nearly 10 Million, but to each there own! I am a pretty dedicated player and have yet to ever see a perk:(You seem to be getting more cynical with each post. Keep going.
I do not care about that top 2% getting spoiled by Blizzard it is irrelevant to the topic.The top 2% are the same guilds we're talking about, so it's relevant.As far as treating them like gold it is money wasted especially since they would just up and leave and have no loyalty as you claim.Nihilium and then Ensidia have been playing since the start, doing exactly what they do now; reporting bugs and killing stuff first.They have loyalty, there isn't anything else they can do to prove that point any more than they have already done.I do not think Blizzard should be worried about some 200 spoiled brat players with no loyalty, while having a subscriber base of nearly 10 Million, but to each there own!200 is 2% of 10 million? Cool.These 20,000 people aren't spoiled brats, these are the people that Blizzard need to cater for, maybe not the most overall, but the most in terms of quickness and reliability, because these are the people that Blizzard rely on for information on how the game is playing, their thoughts on bosses, bugs in bosses, layout of raids, etc etc, so the game is better quality for the 98% when they reach it.Elitist Jerks are in 2% that you called 'spoiled brats' and they share their invaluable knowledge with players through their website, is that not unselfish enough for you?You seem to be getting more cynical with each post. Keep going.You seem to be getting more upset with each post. Keep going.To be perfectly honest, I was ready to drop it at Well lets just say we have a fundamental disagreement in competitive philosophy.but you edited.
Then why do you think they would just up and leave as you earlier stated?I have great respect for my fellow players and on the outset I stated that Paragon should have been a little upset with Blizzard for "Fixing" or working on the encounter while on live and while they were doing the encounter. With what BLizzard has in place NOW, it could have been avoided IF they would have adopted Policies regarding PTR and Live for the sake of fair competition. In my opinion Blizzard fixing during an encounter put a cloud on thier win. Just my opinion for what its worth.These are fundamental points that you are over looking while attempting to paint me as some sort of bad guy. It makes no sense to me.PS: I am a writer and contributor to most of those boards, and maintain a couple websites for WOW myself. As earlier stated I have yet to ever see a perk, and to boot I have never asked for perks and I really do not fore see myself stopping what I do:) I am a Blizzard fan and gamer my loyalty requires no payment or perks and even if it did I would not up and leave if they stopped! LOL!
Then why do you think they would just up and leave as you earlier stated?but you edited.I have great respect for my fellow players and on the outset I stated that Paragon should have been a little upset with Blizzard for "Fixing" or working on the encounter while on live and while they were doing the encounter.Right. Lets get this sorted.Would you rather kill a boss by a Death Knight doing 1 billion damage per tick, or fairly?That's one of the bugs they fixed.With what BLizzard has in place NOW, it could have been avoided IF they would have adopted Policies regarding PTR and Live for the sake of fair competition.It could have, but their is no fun in that for the top players.They should be rewarded along with the rest of us this expansion.This competition is fair as well, everyone has access to PTR, every one has access to Live.How is this not a fair competition?In my opinion Blizzard fixing during an encounter put a cloud on thier win. Just my opinion for what its worth.I'd rather kill something by doing a proper kill attempt rather than spamming one move that did a billion damage.These are fundamental points that you are over lookingI'm not, I've responded to everything you've said, but the same can't be said in return.while attempting to paint me as some sort of bad guy. It makes no sense to me.I'm not, you're taking this as some sort of personal attack on you. It isn't.yes, I split them up, made more sense to reply to the two statements in different sentences.PS: I am a writer and contributor to most of those boards, and maintain a couple websites for WOW myself. As earlier stated I have yet to ever see a perk, and to boot I have never asked for perks and I really do not fore see myself stopping what I do:) I am a Blizzard fan and gamer my loyalty requires no payment or perks and even if it did I would not up and leave if they stopped! LOL!Aye, but Elitist Jerks are different.They maintain their top 2% raiding status whilst constantly theory-crafting every little bit of dps they can gain for others benefit.They also build and maintain a spreadsheet.Whilst I'm not bashing your contribution, I doubt you do as much as them guys. Whenever people right guides, they use EJ. Whenever people answer, they answer using EJ theory-craft. It's such a ... recognized source of information that at least one blue has said WoW would be a worse game without it.
*Legitimate concerns about new guild rep/leveling system*Blizzard: "We understand your concerns, and we'll think hard and come up with a response to these concerns."Blizzard: *copy paste info from worldofwarcraft.com onto new web address*
Uhmm Treskol you missed the part about Sinestra was never on PTR.If She was put on PTR first this DK bug woold have been found along with most everything else long before hand. Then when live competition accross all live realms would have been true and fair competition.But somehow now this 2% of the uber top players would quit wow if Sinestra was put on PTR as ya said earlier.I do not understand your logic.Are you trying to tell me this top % dictates to blizzard what they want and thus the outcome of first world boss kill's are more or les predetermined and in the hands of players that help Blizzard support thier product?
That's not true, I didn't miss it, I responded plenty to it.But as I said, it's a tool, there were still bugs after PTR (Nefarion). It isn't fool proof, bugs are found in game all the time in bosses.It would only break the spirit of competition if it was one rule for one guild and another for the rest. This isn't the case. When For the Horde got World First Cho'gall Heroic, Blizzard worked with them for Sinestra as well.And the thing that keeps them players playing is the promise of an awesomely-hard boss that needs Heroic to be downed to get too. If they have this boss on PTR, then it ruins the surprise for them.Sure, the boss would be less buggy, but it would be easier, everyone would know about it and it would be less ... unique and special. Blizzard want this boss to be unique and special. That's why they make it.And PTR isn't the be all and end all. Illidan, Algalon, Lich King, Kil'jaedin all didn't go through PTR, they turned out fine.No, I'm saying that ... I'll draw a pretty diagram, it'll be easier.Paragon kills Boss --->Boss is bugged in X way (PTR or live) -----> Blizzard fixParagon have no more warning than you or I do, they jump into the deep end and smack big bosses with sticks very hard until it dies. Blizzard say ' hey guys, you killed him first, is there anything you would improve, nerf, buff or anything based from your experiences?'. They reply.It isn't a pre-determined thing, its an after-determined thing. If, say, your guild go and get World First, they'll ask you instead of Paragon, there is no contract between them or anything, it's just that they're first, they ask them. Unfortunately, these guilds competing are the same guilds that competed last year, and in TBC, and in some cases Vanilla, which raises a few eyebrows. They have to trust Paragon to tell the truth, and they will do because most of the time Blizzard are watching their progress, for fun or because they have been designated to. Their loyalty is rewarded by Blizzard, and the people who ultimately get the best game play out of that are the people coming in later.
Then we can go back to step one where I said BLizzard needs to test there encounters in house extensively before releasing them LIVE! Or better yet as I stated Testing extensively in house then placement on PTR then final placement on LIVE! I am not going to dwell on past histories of epic boss encounters! Blizzard has the tools in place now with Cata! So why did this all happen?OMG!But as earlier indicated in this thread Blizzard worked with Paragon in fixing Sinestra as the event unfolded on a LIVE server!NOT to dwell on the past but almost all of it could have been avoided but it was sacrificed all in the name of FRESHNESS! You know that dearest of 2% that would leave the game according to you!Which brings me back to my basic conclusion that this put a cloud on Paragons win and Blizzards vision of competition is not upto par with most other world standards of fair competitive games!OMG!Dont worry not all is lost as Blizzard clearly now has the tools to avoid such treachery and even still did not use them but perhaps just maybe next time they will to insure fair competition!OMG!
Then we can go back to step one where I said BLizzard needs to test there encounters in house extensively before releasing them LIVE! They do. Very much so. I'd wager that the most trusted employees are testing Tier 2 as we speak.Or better yet as I stated Testing extensively in house then placement on PTR then final placement on LIVE!PTR ruins it. As I and others stated it.But as earlier indicated in this thread Blizzard worked with Paragon in fixing Sinestra as the event unfolded on a LIVE server!NOT to dwell on the past but almost all of it could have been avoided but it was sacrificed all in the name of FRESHNESS!Freshness is needed to keep the game going, repetitive gets boring quickly. Take ICC.Which brings me back to my basic conclusion that this put a cloud on Paragons win!It doesn't, only if Blizzard helped them. They didn't.
Well then tough tata's right?Paragons kill was predetermined is just a blunt way of putting it.I am kool with that whatever, but now we are far from what fair competition is and what is being projected and sold to the masses as a world first arent we?Which is the basic and fundamental arguement I have raised here regarding Sinestra's fall.There is a cloud on the kill and thats a fact.Maybe next time Blizzard will test in house, put the boss on PTR and then release it live so the masses can have a legit shot.They had the tools and chose not to use them for the sake of Freshness to the 2% of thier member base.These are facts. Get over it.
These are facts. Get over it.These are your opinions. Get over it. Stupid opinions because you refuse to use your brain.
Whats not Factual?The fact that Sinestra was placed on live before being tested on PTR?The Fact that the encounter was modified in real time during the encounter?The fact that bugs were reported by Paragon for Blizzard to fix on a live server?The fact that BLizzard had the tools and process in place to avoid any questionable live kill were not used.Where am I missing the facts?Face it. I am right about this being a questionable kill and well thats going in the history books. Its done and done.
I've been following the conversation about the bug fix saga and I have to say dottey your analogy that killing sinestra with bug fixes being applied during the kill attempt is like changing the rules in a hockey match is a bit off. They weren't applying fixes that changed the win conditions or the match they were fixing bugs . For a true analogy with sports it would have to be something like this....Imagine a match where the pucks were randomly exploding when the players hit them, players were disappearing and not able to come back, sticks were breaking and the goals were suddenly expanding to 100 foot across( ie the dark simulcrum bug) you'd expect officials to either fix the issues or stop the match.Bug fixes are not rule changes they're bug fixesAlso they can't test everything on the ptr some stuff has to be a suprise. And in all honestly the wow dev team is approximately 140 members, blizzard employes about 4000 people world wide with such a small pool you reckon.they could have a internal test team as good as Paragon? Or for the horde, ensidia, stars. Considering out of the 12.5 million players In wow less than 2000 are in guilds that good or even close to that good
WiserwaylanderBig respect and thats an optimistic way of putting it. LOL at the exploding hocky pucks.At any rate it could have been avoided if it went through proper procedure.Using the new tools Blizzard has now. PTR and the new client downloader.I would wager that Paragon actually had to work harder for the kill had it not been adjsuted and so forth. I just wish BLizzard would keep a perspective of accross the board equality for all players. I love the element of surprise as well along with adapting but making adjustments on a live server during an encounter is just odd to me.I guess many of you differ on the thought and thats fine, to each there own.As I said above though and it is my opinion the event put a cloud on the kill somewhat. I do not like the idea that the encounter was debuged while on a live server and currently being raided. I am sure many have thier own opinions just like I got mine.No big deal:)
I'm sorry Dottey but I am entirely unsure as to how and where this is unfair and non-competitive. As far as I can tell the only reason that Blizzard were hot fixing these bugs during the encounter and as stated above after each wipe was because Paragon were the first guild to get to this encounter in this mode. I am almost 100% certain that if any other guild, whether they were in the top 2% of guilds or not, that Blizzard would have been closely watching the encounter and fixing any bugs that were encountered during the fight. This is both competitive and fair to all guilds. The only other information that we are given is that Paragon were actively reporting bugs in the encounter which I will bet a penny to a pound that not many guilds outside of the top 2% would do.The only real fact that remains is that there are only a handful of guilds that could have even got to this point and be working hard both theorycrafting on the fly and changing tactics as required due to both the encounter and also all the bugs that were in the encounter.Your point about PTR is PTR and Live is Live is also a touch moot, to be fair. What is the benefit to these guilds if the encounter had been on the PTR? I am sure that a statement of 'look guys we beat this really hard boss on the PTR isn't it cool?' would mean nothing to these guys. They want, and Blizzard listen to them in what they say about raids and raid bosses, to find these encounters on a live server where they can prove to the world why they are the top guilds by being in competition with all the other top guilds on an encounter that nobody has ever seen before.Your point about an 'in-house' testing team I cannot answer, though I suspect that Blizzard has a good reason why they prefer to let these things go Live even though they know that there will be bugs.Oh and I count myself as one of the masses being one of those, seemingly few people judging by most comments in other posts, that isn't a hardcore raider even though I have been playing on and off since Vanilla.