Heroics are meant to be hard... and that's without a doubt. Personally I love the challenging factor.. really refreshes my TBC memories.However, there isn't a correct system/mechanic to differentiate the players who knows their class and those who doesn't (and I don't believe there will be).Say when your guildies are sleeping and you decide to queue for a random Heroic, you pop into one with 3-4 members all from a guild from another realm... and they ALL can't make the standard (quoted by many: tanks not using CDs, DPS doing 3-4k..etc). You're basically just locked inside the instance wiping for hours or back out in Azeroth for the next 30 mins due to lockout.But then again, the challenge is awesome as a guild run. But totally disastrous as a PUG.My stand... Don't do heroics in a PUG unless you're prepared to lock yourself out for the next 30 mins.
I don't find them challenging in the right ways. The fun of dungeoning comes from either learning the mechanics of the fight, or masterfully executing them and adjusting for human mistakes.Everything hits too hard and has too many hit points. Having to blow all your cooldowns on trash- even with a competent group is unbalanced. Draining healers so that they have to drink to handle the next pack- does not make it seem more epic. Its a waste of time, and a lesson Blizzard should have learned from Classic. The nature of the Random Dungeon Finder means you have to account for a bad player or two- but there is no room for error currently. I don't expect to faceroll my way through a heroic- but I do expect that we should be able to be successful without wiping if someone makes a mistake or is new to the encounter. I didn't sign up to play so that I would have to train everyone every time I run a dungeon on my own. So either we are forced to guild like the days of MC and BWL where it was be in a good guild, or be in a !@#$ty guild- but be in a guild where others tell you what to do, how to play and who gets the loot. I think Guilds are fun, some are well run- but I when I commit to something I want to be able to make good on that commitment. I don't want to have to log on as a job though. tldr; Hits too hard, too many hitpoints, not enough healing output. The game isnt fun anymore.
I have yet to set foot in a heroic in Cata, but based on what I have seen of the normal dungeons I have a ways to go.I was able to jump in with my mage and run the LK heroics without an issue, So far in the Cata normals I have seen that I have a ways to go. I have enjoyed the need for using more of my abilities especially the CC, but I will get my gear up by questing and rep rewards before I jump into the heroics.I am looking forward to them.
This post gives me a happy.I am glad to hear Blizzard's official stance on the matter. Heroics are supposed to be hard, supposed to be a stepping stone into raiding, and shouldn't be nerfed down. Especially considering we're less than a month into the expansion! People were spoiled by being overgeared for heroics in Wrath and were already well geared before the LFD system came out, so when it did, there wasn't as much failure because even PuGs usually went off without a hitch with most players having done the instance a million times or already fairly well geared before LFD came out. Players are going to have to *gasp* learn by trial-and-error, which WILL involve some failure, but that's working as intended. Once you get it down, you'll be golden. And if we just give it some more time, people will be better geared and it'll seem easy again. I'm happy it's going to take a bit more time, effort, and energy to get geared up and perform well. It shouldn't be a cake walk. Not with a name like "heroic."
they are a challenge. but thats what gameing is all about, finding a challenge and beating it. why play a game if it isnt challengeing? i have been stuck in a heroic on several bosses it was frustrating as all get out dont get me wrong but when we beat we were much more excited than when we downed some of the bosses in heroic ICC. the challenge is welcome to most of us that enjoy gameing.
I remember the days of Shattered Halls, Botanica, Slave pens heroics. That was when you had to play your character, not just face roll the keyboard through each encounter, trash included.I still remember one guild wipe. We started to gather outside the boss room. Everyone was almost there when the hunter, who had feigned death, came running through with every trash mob left alive in the dungeon hot on his tail. Oops....Getting through a dungeon without a death use to be a great achievement. WotLK changed that. So even with all the sweeping changed to the game in Cata, it is nice to see something changed back to the way it was.
To be perfectly honest I dont see heroics any harder than usual since being a player from Vanilla where CC etc were needed I feel that heroics are doable with a good CC/ Interupt group players who started out in WoTLK may disagree with this as Wrath Heroics were literally go in AoE stuff down till it was dead no need for a mana break or eat up just go onto the next set of trash or even the boss with 30% mana and still down a boss in heroic but that was Wrath this is Cata everything is different people need to get used to the fact that everyone is still learning their class again and not rage quit a heroic because someone caused a wipe or you died due to healer going OOM we have all been there some people are there still just exept that it's a change that people are still getting used to not everybody learns as fast as everyone else
yeah a minimum hp dodge parry and defense rating requirement would be a lot more effective than minimum average item level to get in.
I understand the face that a heroic dungeon should be hard, and I don't think they should be nerfed but I am a tank and I waited to get ilvl339 rather than ilvl 329 to try and tank my first heroic dungeon and try to be as good as I can.Now what happens to me is when I enter the dungeon, 99% of the parties ask this question --> "Have you ever done this on HC before?" and I say "No but I can learn fast", and there I end up kicked. I find this completely unfair that I cannot enjoy this game as it is. Why do I have to create a DPS character to play a heroic dungeon? I know nothing is going to happen but now I feel better haha.I should just quit WoW because I only like PvE and I cannot do PvE because other people don't want me to.Thanks for your time reading ;)
Heroic level gear is 346. The next lowest gear tier is ilvl 333 which drops from normal level 85 dungeons (Tol'vir, Origination, Grim Batol) and can be crafted and purchased from faction QMs at Honored.You can enter heroics at ilvl 329, however this level of gear seems significantly too low to succeed in heroics. I had all 333 gear and I found PuGing heroics to be nearly impossible. This seems particularly true for healers and tanks. Of course, many wipes are due to errors or mis-communications, but gear is what allows for slight errors. Level 333 affords very little room for error. And of course, PUGs will fall apart after 1-3 wipes in my experience.So as of right now heroics seem best left to guildl runs. Is that really what Blizz wants? The introduction of the LFD tool suggests to me that they want Pugging to be a viable option. At this stage, I do not believe it is. Yes, heroics will be easier when near tiers of gear become available. But right now the average player can't complete heroics, and they means they can't even see what the new raiding content looks like.I am not suggesting we return to the days of WotlK. I think the introduction of ToCh, FoS, PoS, anbd HOO was a horrible idea because they made all other heroic dungeons pointless to run and made epics far too commonplace. However, I think the bar has been set too high if 90%+ of PuGs cant complete heroics dungeons.
Failing healers taking MB after every packI'm not sure how much I agree with this comment. It isn't always the healers failing if they have to take a mana break after ever pull. If the group is r-tards and there is _no_ CC then the healer will have to drink up after the pull. If the tank thinks he is gods gift to the LFG tool and doesn't pay attention to patrols or mechanics of a group of mobs then the healer will have to drink after every pull. Don't blame the healers for the groups mistakes.As a healer (currently have an 85 shaman and paladin that heal 5 mans), I completely disagree with OP. My paladin has it much easier than my shaman does with mana, but when fights are done properly and CC is maintained I can keep a full mana bar after a great majority of trash pulls.For the love of god, if you can interrupt or stun, please do so every chance you get. Don't stand in fire, or any other ground damage. If you are going to be hit by an avoidable crash, please move. If you don't know a fight, don't be shy or embarrassed to ask. Tanks also need to know when to blow their CD's. And for everyone but the tank...expect to be healed 100%, 60% of the time. I actually got kicked from a group because I didn't keep dps health bars to full. In blackrock caverns, no less...with no cc on the earthshapers and 2 paladins that don't know how to stun. Yes, I am a fail healer cause I can't keep 5 people's health bars up with that amount of damage going across. With a smart group, the 5 mans are heroic are for the most part easy. I've run some dungeons that I end up going "wow, that was really f'in easy" only to run it with another pug and I start looking for a noose to hang myself five minutes into the dungeon.
Uhg, same song different verse. They've addressed this issue since they first introduced heroics. Heroics are supposed to be more difficult than regular. Here, let me draw you a picture:Regular ----> Heroic ----> RaidsGear progresses the same way, you'll obtain gear that is appropriate for the content that Blizzard wants you to experience.Give me a call in six months and let me know if you still QQ about heroic difficulty...
I for one LOVE LOVE LOVE the new heroics. That being said, its a bit of a headache to find a group of competent people who understand the subtly of CC and basic fight mechanics (kiting, interrupting, etc.). It makes PUG in dungeon finder more difficult, but at least they have the iLvL requirements (wish it would be higher). I'm an old vanilla wow player and love the return of dungeons that require you to think and react more inside it instead of just clicking a few buttons. The main reason they take so long is that us vet's have to teach (often slow thinking kids) how to actually play. I'm all for instruction but I can only take so much.The next step would be to require some more dungeon experiences at lower levels and incorporate these aspects into them to get people used to them sooner. I hate having to a DK tank what classes can do which CC, what their uses are, kill ordres, and how to kite (NOT BACK-PEDDLE).Remember UBRS and having a hunter kite one of Drak's adds to the beast room? Those were the days...when people actually knew how to play.
I love the new heroics, they actually make you wanna become a better player, make you learn the encounters, work for what you want from the bosses, be it gear, achievements, or JP.
Thank goodness! Blizzard isn't completely whipped by the 12 year olds!
Now what happens to me is when I enter the dungeon, 99% of the parties ask this question --> "Have you ever done this on HC before?" and I say "No but I can learn fast", and there I end up kicked. I find this completely unfair that I cannot enjoy this game as it is. Why do I have to create a DPS character to play a heroic dungeon? I know nothing is going to happen but now I feel better haha.That street runs both ways -- fail tank or healer gets kicked, or blames DPS and drops, and you sit in queue for an hour trying to replace him. You're lucky if you get to finish the dungeon as DPS.The point of the system is that you should work hard with the group you're given, but of course, most of the people that play this game are retarded and aren't interested in any sort of mentoring of fresh players -- they just want their constant stream of justice points (or whatever the hell currency you get). Unfortunately LFD will always be a cesspool of elitism, and it will only get worse as the e-peen crowd gets their Tier 11 on and expects faceroll heroics again (just like it was in Wrath).Just make some friends on your server (or find a guild) and run with them. One nice thing about the RP server I play on is that there's a whole crowd of us that hang out in the Out-Of-Character channel while we're doing whatever, and when one of us gets the itch for dungeons it's pretty easy to put together a PUG. A decent guild will provide you with the same type of player pool to run with. And it's all much easier when you don't have to worry about the random idiots that bail after one wipe.You can't beat the system, so evolve beyond it.
I for one LOVE LOVE LOVE the new heroics. That being said, its a bit of a headache to find a group of competent people who understand the subtly of CC and basic fight mechanics (kiting, interrupting, etc.). It makes PUG in dungeon finder more difficult, but at least they have the iLvL requirements (wish it would be higher). I'm an old vanilla wow player and love the return of dungeons that require you to think and react more inside it instead of just clicking a few buttons. The main reason they take so long is that us vet's have to teach (often slow thinking kids) how to actually play. I'm all for instruction but I can only take so much.The next step would be to require some more dungeon experiences at lower levels and incorporate these aspects into them to get people used to them sooner. I hate having to a DK tank what classes can do which CC, what their uses are, kill ordres, and how to kite (NOT BACK-PEDDLE).Remember UBRS and having a hunter kite one of Drak's adds to the beast room? Those were the days...when people actually knew how to play.This. I miss the heck out of those days. LK just bred a whole ton of bad players. I quit for a while after Wrath came out (personal reasons, not game reasons), and when I came back and got into heroics, I tried to cc stuff and people would just break the cc without even thinking. It made me sad. Glad to see the pendulum is swinging back to where it needs to be.
I've done plenty of heroics, and while we aren't quite in TBC heroic MgT territory, playing one of the two DPS classes without crowd control (DK or warrior) can often be a real drag. I've joined groups comprised of tank, non-shaman healer, DK, warrior, rogue. They had to kick a DPS, and I didn't blame them for it. Heck, I wouldn't blame them for kicking BOTH of us-- heroics can be significantly harder with only one CC.Also, paladin tank single-target threat needs to be significantly buffed. I pull aggro from paladins all the time.
Remember UBRS and having a hunter kite one of Drak's adds to the beast room? Those were the days...when people actually knew how to play.hahaha THIS pull was exactly what I was thinking about as an example from vanilla. That was just how it was done :)
The heroics are far too easy, far too forgiving.Its sad when you see people at 5k dps getting carried, dozens of errors in a 3minute span and still winning the fight. ImO, only trash should be forgiving, thats why it is trash. Bosses should not.As for those calling out for filtering. Do as we do when we need 1 or 2 more.3 Macros and you have to target the newcomer.1. /p And here is our new contestant! %t. Will he be a complete failure like those who failed before him! Only time will tell!2. /p The rules are simple... pull the boss, watch %t wipe us like the rest of them. 3./p On your marks, get set, PULL, KILL, LOOT.If you get a complete failure, he will stay for around 2-3 attempts. We went through 7 healers on stonecore dragon and they all died at crystal shard AoE.