I've seen a Hunter who was half AFK (things went much smoother when he was actually contributing to DPS) roll on a trinket that had a Strength proc and win it. That's not specifically Dungeon Finder, but is also something that needs addressing. If a basic stat is involved on an item which is one that the class in question either receives no benefit from, or next to none then others for whom it's a key stat should get priority even if both pressed 'Need'.That way the idiot hunter could have still won it if they were the only one pressing need, but wouldn't have when an actual Strength-focused class rolled Need with a lower number.I've also heard of DF groups kicking a Druid for rolling against a rogue on gear. Yes, he's feral.
I am a DPS. I queue on my own. One of my friends was surprised to learn that, almost entirely through pugging over two weeks, I'd acquired 10 Chaos Orbs and more JP than I could possibly find use with.I don't know if I'm just lucky, but my experience with LFD has not been bad at all at 85. My best moment has been meeting three total strangers from my own server, entirely by chance, and having a brilliantly efficient run with lovely people, which made me three new friends. And the overall quality of play, while not of Method standard, has nevertheless been suitable for heroics. Yes, there are wipes. Yes, we damn well deal with them, figure out what went wrong, and push on to defeat the boss.The worst thing I have come up against is tanks who do not know the fight, and I have very fair methods of dealing with that. If/when something goes wrong with an issue that the tank needs to fix (Karsh Steelbender, for instance), I explain to them what went wrong and how they can fix it. We then pull again. If we wipe again to something different, but the original thing has been fixed, I am more than happy to persevere. If the same thing is messing up, I will explain, again, what the tank needs to do, and will ask them if they understand what I mean. When I get a "Yes", we go again. If they mess up again on the same thing, it's a party kick immediately. If they are all from the same guild ... Well, in my experience bad tanks from one guild are followed by bad DPS and a bad healer from the same guild, so I'll notice lots more than just the tanking going wrong and am liable to leave before things have the chance to get more dicey than they already are.My very worst experience, and the only one so far in Cataclysm to make me type IN ALL CAPS (which is very rare for me) was yesterday, in Stonecore. Most pugs in Stonecore have problems with the initial trash (Guys, you need to interrupt Force of Earth. Stop kicking healers for your failure), but after that cope just fine with the bosses. This run, however, was cursed with Ozruk tanks.I went through five bad tanks, through a mixture of me kicking and them leaving, before getting one who didn't tank Ozruk against a $%^&ing wall and who actually avoided Shatter, instead of complaining that Shatter "wasn't supposed to be avoided". Remember my initial philosophy here: every tank, I asked, time and again, not to tank him against a wall -- to run through him for Ground Slam, to run away from him on Shatter. Three of these bad tanks said they understood what I meant, and then just proceeded on the next pull to tank him against a wall again!I also went through three healers who kept dispelling the SW: P I put up on myself to break Paralyse, and one mage who insisted on spellstealing Elemental Bulwark for no reason, claiming that that particular fight mechanic could be ignored (Protip: It can't and shouldn't). The only two original party members of that run by the end of it (oh, yes, we finished the run on our sixth tank. He was like unto God himself when he showed up and, when asked, "Are you going to tank him against the wall?", replied "No") were myself and a Fury Warrior. We refused to abandon the run, because it may have been the worst 30 minutes of our lives (on that one particular boss), but for both of us each tank represented a chance at downing the boss -- and, regardless of whether it would've been better in hindsight to drop group and requeue, each individual tank was only three minutes' worth of finding.Now, this scenario was pretty bad, I agree. But I got through the run. I got my 70 valour points. And, y'know what? I was really proud of myself and this fury warrior for sticking together in a half-finished run while useless, simple people came and left all around us. And, once again, I must stress that this was an isolated incident. I have had runs which have wiped on Karsh and which required the replacement of a tank -- but that's been maybe a 10-minute delay, and I do try to help.My most recent former-guild's members seem to have the complete opposite mindset to me regarding pugs. They flat-out refuse to pug, ever -- they rarely pug even a single DPS for heroics, much less a healer and certainly never a tank. (Because no tanks apart from themselves know how to play the game, amirite?)It strikes me that the anti-pug mindset is also accompanied by a parochial way of playing the game: "if someone else doesn't know something, it's not my job to tell them -- they should just know." A certain level of arrogance seems to go along with this, too (unfounded, in places. Lol, 550 spirit as a healer: This isn't Wrath, darling. Discipline doesn't work that way now; the fights don't hate you, you're just bad.) There is no desire to teach others -- no desire to help others get better.Yeah, okay, that's not necessarily why we play this game -- we don't necessarily want to have to write a forum-post-length essay in every instance into which we go just because someone doesn't understand the fight mechanics ... But if we're really not going to do that, could we not have Wowhead open? I'm pretty sure everyone here, when they first set foot into a Heroic they'd not yet done, immediately fired up Wowhead to find out what sort of abilities each boss had, and the strategies for dealing with them. Why not just copy-paste the strats from the comments pages into the edit box? That would suffice, if you have difficulty expressing what you want to say or just don't have the will to do so.Not only is that mindset parochial and arrogant, it is also anti-social. It is anti-"Massively-Multiplayer"; it's just "Multiplayer". I won't go as far as to say "If a group fails, you are as much to blame as any other group member" (and by "fail" I mean break apart, such that no one is left to find new people from the LFD system to complete the run), because you might know how to play your class; you might know how to play every class in the game. But if a group fails, it is at least 15% the fault of an individual group member. Always. Everyone has the ability to stop groups from falling apart at the first sign of trouble. All it requires is to talk to people. So few people will say "Hi" at the start of an instance run -- fewer still if someone else doesn't say it first -- but just striking up a conversation will make people more likely to stay. Especially at this time of year, that is so simple: What did everyone get for Christmas? Is anyone going out partying at New Year? Made any resolutions? -- simple, tiny things. It's so easy not to care about anyone else you group with, but the harder road has the potential for such a better, rewarding experience from pugged content.You do sometimes run into guild runs with four very poor guild representatives, who will, for instance, talk in their native language throughout the entire run and only revert to English if it is to insult someone or to tell someone that they are a noob shortly before kicking them -- the epitome of a "tough crowd". In those situations I generally have one of two actions: I either just sit quietly, hoping that I don't make a mistake and hoping that I can get through the run; or I tell them what I think of them and leave. My moral stance on that is rather flexible depending on how much time I have available, whether valour points are at stake, etc. I much prefer doing the latter, though. It won't change anything, but I detest being in such groups, because it's worse than not pugging at all: it's pugging, and then excluding the pugger from as much of the social group mechanic as possible, which, frankly, is a crappy thing to do.In short, people online are prone to a number of negative traits which impact the success of pugs: asocial behaviour, passive aggression, instinctive distrust, impatience ... The list goes on. Chiefly, though, people want something for nothing. They expect just to sit in a run, expect everyone to pull their weight, as if they are in some kind of WoW Heaven where everything goes right all the time. Not everything does. There are many ways to deal with it, but essentially it comes down to two approaches: a) throwing a tantrum, kicking someone and/or leaving, or b) being the bigger person, taking on a leadership role and actually doing something constructive about it. Sometimes the "constructive" thing will still be to leave or to kick someone, but if done such that the run can still complete and that your message has gotten across, overall the game gets just that little bit better.
Does anyone remember how bad the heroics were when Wrath first began? I remember them being almost if not just as painful and this was with others on your server. But then people would get trolled in trade saying how bad they were and to never ever bring them into a heroic.I am not going to lie, it is painful and makes me very frustrated, even angry at times. But things are slowly getting better, just as they did in WotLK. I really don't think there is any easy or good solution for this however. People abuse the system and the internet brings all sorts of uncivilised folks.The biggest problem is lack of communication, plain and simple. Either you have all the Wrath mindset people thinking they know everything and don't need to listen to the suggestions of those who have actually run these heroics and know what is needed to make it smooth. Or you have the elitist kids who go off the handle when a mistake is made just once. Nevermind not making that same mistake again. We have horribly mean people in this game and anywhere else over the internet. We do not choose to be a part of their lives but for an hour or two we either have to deal and shut up or leave and wait for our deserter debuff to drop and a new queue. We can't change those who don't want to be changed. It is a decision we have to make on our own whether or not we have the time to try all over again.I like the new heroics being challenging, I however do not like that it can take half a day to just get the one random done. Heroics are too long even with a group of individuals that have all run it several times before. And honestly, I believe that is the root of the problem. You wait in queue for a 1/2 an hour to over an hour and this is what happens: A) The tank or healer drop out after the first wipeB) People do not want to listen and continue to make the same mistakes over again. Resulting in kicking said individual.C) You have a rager who just wont let up and you end up leaving because you can't handle their crazy behavior any longer.D) You wipe...several times but make it through. finally, after two and a half hours or more.and very rarely does thise happen..E) You make it through basically unscathed in an hour and half to two hours.Now granted, things will get much easier with our gear level growth but then why would we be running the heroics like this then. We wont because we wont need to. We do not run heroics for fun, at least not those of us who are sane ;). We run them to gear up and for achievements. Oooo look at that pretty new mount! So time is our biggest enemy right now and it really does take far too long to run these heroics with all the shenaningans we have to endure. But hey, that's just my oppinion.
It is easy for I haven't leveled passed 80 yet (I left my 80's where they are and decided to start a new alt to explore all the new zones)I have had exactly 3 bad experiances from 1-59 with Dungeon ToolI must note that I'm always the healer (Holy Priest) and this is my second priest so I know the basics of my class well..1) Tanks are rare so they can act like !@#$%^&s and know that we can't kick themTank loses 1roll against a palladin who was gearing his OS (the item had +intel so it is better for a pala tank then a warrior)instead of taking it like an adult or at least talking about it he tried ninjaing every item that dropped further on (so we all rolled and divided amongst ourselves)2) I don't mind comments or when I do something wrong please correct me, but don't push itI let the tank die because he tried pulling 3mobs while our retadin just agroed a patrol, I was oom and far behind.I warned him because it was the second time, I just watched him die.. slowly..Then I had 2dpsers spamming my chat because I did that, while the tank admitted he was wrong to go ahead!3) Bring your own food/drinksWe don't have a mage and I'm not going to heal you too full (Life tapping warlocks) so you can save the 30silver for drinks!I don't mind wiping sometimes (things can go wrong), I don't care if your DPS isn't top notch (as long as we clear it) and I won't troll/complain if you mention you still need practicing some tactics.But I do mind: that you are trolling/flaming the party because you think you are the Pro.. and expect a repairbill if you lack the socialskills to be kind!
I am a healer and after the expansion i found something different when run a pug, undergeared guys trying to do a heroic under the average item level recommend by the tool, you select an inspect and what do you see, a lot of green equips, i think blizz must look about the tool, because if you not wearing a equip that have ilevel better then what you are using, gives you access to the dungeon, let me explain, one day i found a mage with a staff that give to him agility, yeah agility, when we asked him about the staf, he says: "im gearing", and in that case, we cant kick him because you have to push him until the time of "unkicking" over, so this feature of ilevel open a breach to people just keep an tank trinket on the bags and enter the instance as healer with a trinket ilevel 100.Another think that piss me off in pugs its the dps that think the healer must save everyone in every situation, like stay on a mob whirlwind, and die, so he says: "can you heal it or not?", the answer: "i can heal your hit points not stupidity".
My big request to Blizzard, and I won't claim this idea as my own but can't remember where I first saw it.Change the rolling buttons. Mainspec, Offspec, Greed/DE.Spec should go by the job you signed up to do in the dungeon. So if a dps plate item drops the tank would not be allowed to click main spec, however the tank could click offspec and if none of the dps wanted it he'd get it before the greed/de rolls.I feel it should really respect stat needs to. If it's mail and got int on it why should a hunter get it? Or a staff with agi on it to a mage.To add to this I feel they should do for chaos orbs what they did for frozen, they made it so only one of need/greed was active so everyone either passed or rolled the same.I know this sort of thing won't fix the kicks and the bad attitudes, but it will hurt ninja's. I'd like to see it if a Prot MS and Ret OS Pally goes to a dungeon and healing plate drops they'd only get to greed or de it. I know trinkets may be harder, but at least lets fix the majority of the armour rolls or the stuff where people can need on truly inappropriate stuff.
There is a simple way to master poor players and trolls... that is to be the better player or the greater troll. Tanks who do not run back because they are too busy typing/explaining what everyone else did which led to the wipe are bested by "It's not his fault, it's my/our fault, let's just get back in here and give it another try" (even if it wasn't your fault, that will usually shut them up and gain the appreciation of the person who's fault it actually was). The ultimate troll is to feed a troll something that gives them indigestion. Stay positive and you should effectively be able to manage just about anyone's BS (and I'm not talking about blacksmithing). Ultimately, I find it easier when I imagine that someone playing the orc or the dwarf ACTUALLY IS that race. Like there's an orc logged in to WoW somewhere in Seattle. You'd be surprised how impressionable the subconscious is, especially after spending 85 levels with them.Oh, and anything dk tanking should be presumed to have an amount of immaturity, because all dks are really only level 30.
Dont forget "Oh... so you are from Realm X? You suck... i will not heal you."
Two fixes that would prevent me from ever having PUG issues again...1) Allow cross-server friend lists. Not RealID, but allow "friending" a good tank or healer you meet in a PUG. With all of the horror stories of PUGs, I have been with lots of great players. But, since they are on other servers, I will only see them again by the luck of the RNG.2) Allow cross-server groups to be formed for purposes of dungeon runs.
At first I was of the mind to actually help and instruct bad players because maybe they just don't know. Not everyone could be around since vanilla like myself. So the whole concept of thinking while playing, having CC, kill orders are simply foreign to some players. They still think that is "weak sauce" talking, and not simply making a faster, more fun, easier experience.That changed last night.I only give a group 2 shots on a boss now. I've gone through too many tanks saying "LoL watch this aoe pull" "DPS U SUCK get better gear" "healer, u afk or what?" Simple questions/reminders pre-pulls are fine, but deliberate ignorance and &*!@#$baggery is unforgivable.I'm tired of 2 hour long wipe fests. The worst part? half of them are with guild-mates who don't understand gearing up for heroics, then gearing up for raiding. They nice people and thats why I'm with them. I've returned to /2 LFM H-SC 1tank 1DPS pstMake new server side friends who are reasonable and geared, like the old days. My friend's list is no where near what it once was...
Perhaps the answer- Just came to me-Enable a Server Only option for using the Random Group Tool. Q may be longer, but it will be much easier to develop a reputation and reliability among people. In the Old days if a person was in a certain guild, you knew to stay away (Morlocks - Spirestone) If you wanted faster que (Larger pool) just enable battlegroup searching, but if you want a stronger control on feedback stay server side.
So I have some ideas, none are fully developed and alot have bugs, but how about we implement something other than ilvl. we could implement a min stam for tanks min int/agil for dps and min spirit for healers. that way people at least have their gear. while also keeping the role check based on what spec they are in. its pretty dumb having to click dps when i'm in a dps spec or heals when im in a healing spec. its like duh.... so why give the choice? also you could give "dungeon experience" if that were possible. do enough dungeons before raid is available. also there could be an afk timer like in bgs. also there could be a kindness meter system, where players rate their teammates after random dungeons, which then would work a bit like an ebay score and you could put people of similar brackets together lol. (though I have to admit that idea is really buggy)
I know blizzs is really trying to get others like myself into group play but LFD is being used by people in the wrong way. I play 9 toons all dual specced and geared correctly for their level, the only character that I don't have is a hunter. The three characters I had the most fun playing was my prot. warrior, holy priest and Elem. / Restro. shaman. For me I'm starting to check out other games that will be coming out, I'm not going to be one of those persons that goes mental because the game is fast becoming no fun for me. No one is forcing me to play and I'm not going to sit and complain. I'm a adult and if something isn't right about a situation and I have a way to change it then I will. I don't have any friends that play wow and I'm not in a guild, so LFD is the only way that I can get to run in one. For those of you out there that say join a guild, I did.. a few to be honest, the problem was always either fighting going on with people in the guild with each other (I wasn't involved) or people just sitting around talking/typing about their personal life and not doing anything. So all of you out there that aren't having any problems with the game by all means keep playing, enjoy it. I just wish that I still could.spelling
I run dungeons as a tank. I have always the healer as my focus, so I can have everytime a quick look on his/her mana. First thing is when I enter a dungeon is that I sort out the marks. And what hate I? Waiting for the healer drinking his/her mana up, but I start marking up the next group, DPS see his/her mark, and casts CC...there is not even a skull up! (after 3 weeks, I mark skull as last one...had the same problem vice-versa: they see a skull, and go...). At this time, I go 99% whit guild group. I realy got bored whit pugs...there was a saturday, when I couldn't finish my first randomHC for valor points, 'cause I met only lowgeared (PvP gear FTW...)/lowdpsers/retards. I'm trying to be realy polite, and never leave after a wipe, only when it's not my fault, but the others begin to rage on me (pick up the adds! the adds, can't come close to the boss, etc..etc..omg! they have 77-100K HP? don't tell me u can't kill a non-elite mob as a DPs?), or when after 3 wipes nothing is going better as on the first try...I would realy love to see some karma/rating system. Especial account bound. Like I would be realy happy when achievments would be also accountbound (kingslayer main, 5K+ GS alt, and can't get into TotC while the alt is missing the TotC achie...great...). I miss the good old TBC (I know, I know, but I realy do...) where u could get "reputation" in your servers community by being good/polite in HCs...(Hm..u have the crafted epics, u do your job well, wanna join our guild? etc)
I think the solution would be better spent changing who can get into randoms, how and why... who can roll on what, how and why.Why is pvp gear counted in average ilvl?Why is the minimum average ilvl so low?Why calculate items in your inventory and bank, allowing people to cheat their way in via junk hoarding?Why allow people to queue as something they're neither geared nor specced for?Why allow people to roll need for items they cannot use under any conditions?Why not give main specs priority in need rolls for relevant gear?If I wanted to, right now, I could load up my inventory with useless random ilvl 333s that do nothing to benefit my class whatsoever, vendor every piece of gear I'm wearing, reset my talents and queue as whatever I please.How can Blizzard leave the door open for so many different ways to abuse the system, to troll, to grief?As for a karma system... that would just lead to widespread abuse. Bad, bad idea.
One more suggestion I'd say is to ignore people you don't want to be grouped with anymore. I usually just right click their name in chat, and click ignore. I have found, however, a bug in the game that it seemingly won't allow you to do that if the server they are from has a space in it. I don't know the "fix", or if you can type it manually somehow, but I tried with quotes, to no avail. Anyway, ignoring them means that you won't even get grouped with them again, so try your absolute best to get along with your group, do your job well, but if there is anyone that is just way out of line and/or is terrible, ignore them! Hope this tip helps some of you maintain your sanity.
LFD should have been realm only. This would make bad behavior in runs a known quantity on the server. Back before LFD, I knew who the jerks were and so did pretty much everyone else on the server. Get rid of the leaving group penalty. Sometimes there are good reasons for leaving...penalizing a tank or healer for a 1/2 hour only hurts the efficiency of LFD.As I've often said,make dungeon drop class tokens. This is already used on some raid boss drops. The dungeon would have a drop list you could choose from and/or if you don't need any of it...use it for points. This would eliminate ninja.Install a Que idle reminder. Every 5 minutes it would pop up and remind you that you are in a que and if you would like to continue to stay in it. if you didn't click "Yes" with in the allotted time frame you would be removed.Add a perk at the end of a completed dungeon run that if someone stays for all the bosses they would earn a chance to win a "repeat run" token that could be used to repeat a completed dungeon of your choice and avoid the 24hr waiting period. You could only earn one per day and it would have to be used that day. This would increase the pool of players allowed to que. Install a feature that allows you to rate the player. Same way some websites(ebay) offer polling at the end of a session to rate your experience. Players would earn from 0-5 star ratings. You could opt out completely, rate the group with one click or rate each individual separately. Throw in perks for completing the poll.An extra layer of protection could be added to your que based on the rating if you chose to utilize it. Yes this would probably increase que time but it would also have the opposite affect of exposing ninjas, rudeness,etc and marginalizing that kind of behavior. Yes someone could try abuse this to purposely hurt another players rating, but to minimize this, the votes would be pooled into their respected category. So for instance if someone has 20 5-star votes and someone wants to screw him by voting 0-star..that would be weighed against the 20 5-stars and if it didn't go over a certain percentage then it wouldn't change the rating unless more lower votes continued to be added. This would always be adjusted on the last 20 to 30 votes to keep it up to date and have an up/down/same arrow to show progress.
This is exactly why I decided to quit doing dungeons on my 85 Warrior. I feel like my time is constantly being wasted with the long queue and idiots in the group which end up causing the group to disband.I plan to play alts and not even worry about end game crap for now.