I do what the picture illustrates too, but only when it's glaringly obvious what the actual reason is.Such, teh healer is AFK, I'll type for the reason "He smells funny." or "He said my father smelled of elderberries"
First thing I'd change is the fact, that vote kicked players doesn't see reason why they are kicked. There should be a message where would be told reason entered to the field by another player. What happens now is, as I call it, Wrath syndrome. People are used to free epics, easy heroics and face-rolling everything they possibly can. Now, heroics are heroic, epics are epic and superior items are superior, which is good. I think that maybe leaving player would have to enter a reason and other players will choose him punishment, for example 15 or 30minutes long deserter, maybe none because there are rare cases when you just have to go because something important is going on, and hey, it's just a game, real life comes first. Back in Wrath I was in Halls of Reflections and Battered Hilt dropped . Yahoo! We all of course rolled on need and one warlock from my realm won. I gz'ed him and apparently I saw Field of Death which wanted to kick him out of the group and reason was "He doesn't deserve more loot." I was like What the Fu.. I pressed no, but still it passed. Warlock whispered me like WTF and all I could say was sorry.Except for all these, in Wrath almost in every heroic dungeon which was a PUG was awfully non-social. We didn't even say hello or gg, nothing! Just everyone did his job, someone screamed at another for being AFK more than 3 seconds and everyone gladly left at the end because he never ever wanted to see those people game. It's social game, for god's sake! This was pretty mad! Blizzard really HAS to do something about it!l Another thing, wipe means disband because wipe means either tank or dps or healer are terrible. No more chances, bye idiots. What the heck is wrong with people! Wipes are good thing. You never learn if you never fall. That's what it is about, not being idiot because I couldn't heal tank that stupidly pulled half of the dungeon(wrath-baby syndrome)
IMHO every one of the problems identified under "Classic PUG Problem Child" is due to one "simple" problem: children playing WoW. To some extent, WoW has been a victim of it's own success. You do not get 12 million players by catering to the 25-45 demographic; you have to cater to 12-15s. Or even younger, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that nobody under 12 plays WoW.In my experience WoW creates a Lord of the Flies mentality in children. Don't know what that is? There is a book you can read (actually a classic) and black & white movie adaptation you can watch. These are not ficticious representations dreamed up by some clever author. This is what happens when children are given positions of power, in this case, level 80s and 85s with top gear (hello WotLK heroics).To say that parents need to be more active in how their children play WoW is to deflect and avoid the issue. I know relatively few father & son teams who play WoW and without exception, the sons are responsible, mature and friendly. But how many parents have time to 1) play WoW while balancing their lives and/or 2) be around when their children play. When the cat's away the mice will play ...Blizzard must be expecting to lose a sizable chunk of their player base to Star Wars: The Old Republic. It must be unavoidable. Unless Bioware somehow screws it up royally ... unlikely in my experience. They make top quality games .. or at least they used to when they were independent.If I am right, then Blizzard may in part be using the difficulty of Cata heroics to subtly drive away the rage-quitters, impatient kiddies and problem children. If they play it right, then a sizable portion of those who leave WoW for SW:TOR will be the "undesirables".
Simple answer, I think--the only people who do dungeons as they're leveling are people who actually LIKE dungeons. You don't get loot-whores in lower level dungeons, because loot doesn't matter. At 85, suddenly EVERYONE is running them, whether they really like dungeons or not--because it's the best way to advance your character. So you get a lot of easily angered, bored, or frustrated players.
I think the best solution here is for every player to actually play the game and not spend $15 a month just to troll or make others angry (although those two are similar). I know that will never happen, and so I think the way that Blizzard can step in is making a "Report bad behavior" checkbox while in dungeons. That way, they aren't expected to babysit every dungeon group, and at the same time, players that are AFK for a very long time can simply be kicked, while players who are rude, elitist, etc. can be presented to GMs so that negative sanctions can be taken against them.Edit: I massively agree with helmates and Malgayne. I wonder if there is some way Blizz can prevent younger players from playing...
All in all, people in the random dungeons have this amazing ability to always turn into a complete bunch of ^&*!s. Don't think I haven't been running a dungeon for the last 4 days without someone calling the other guy 'retard' and starting a major flamefest.This is probably one of the reasons I quit back in the day with WoW being infected more and more by these manic depressive preteen outcasts who completely lacks the ability to conform to team play and not bash each other into oblivion for the slightest mistake. And if you don't watch out, you'll end up just like them, wanting to smash everyone's skull in because you get so much crap thrown in your face practically the second you hit "Enter dungeon".I like the game and all, but some people defile it so much with their arrogance and nerdrage thats its hard to practice a good holiday spirit.What could Blizz do? Not much, except ban their asses straight away as soon as a foul word is uttered. Just a nice little temp ban each time and they'll learn their lesson. Boy would it clean up the mess...
As a tank, these complaints sound like DPS QQ.I can't count how many times people don't listen, break CC, or pull before you do saying "faster!"So I tend to kick problem children that learned bad habits in WOTLK and expect it to take 20 min. I'd rather have undergeared than underperformers - everyone starts somewhere. Want this to go away? Make kicks/afks public rating. My fav is the mid boss healer leave move, or DP aoe pull after people are buffing after a fight pull.As for that 10-65 content, it's not that it is nicer people, it's that the content is nerfed to be manageable for 2-3 competent people.
* Tank / Healer Tyranny: We're the tank and healer, and all of you DPS classes are worthless peons who mean nothing therefore you must do everything we say and this includes giving up loot rights or dealing with us verbally berating you every minute. *I had that, just the other day. Myself, my spouse, and one of my guildies had queued for a heroic. Well, my guildie had an issue with dying, it wasn't that he was pulling aggro, or that the tank wasn't doing his job -- it was just a bad pull. Or so we thought. As it turns out, the healer we had picked up had decided that unless everything was running smooth to the point of facerolling, she wasn't going to heal us. She then proceeded to flame myself and the guildie in the party, saying "Speaking to the healer this way? Not a wise choice, my friend." As if she was the Queen of Dungeon Queue healers.Classy.I've also had a DPS attempt to tell my hubby that he wasn't doing his job. Well.. there's an issue with that when, he very much was. The DPS happened to be standing outside of something that he should've been standing inside of. He took massive damage. He blamed said damage on an imaginary aggro issue that was 'the tank's fault'. ... That one was rather amusing. Queuing For Queue's Sake: LOL I QUEUED AS A TANK OR A HEALER BUT I DON'T ACTUALLY PLAN ON DOING MY ROLE AND I'M JUST GOING TO STAND HERE LIKE AN IDIOT AND HOPE SOMEONE ELSE CAN DO MY JOB FOR ME LOLOLOLMy hubby is a tank, and he happens to love pouring over strategies, rotations, and useful theorycraft for the sake of perfecting his tanking techniques, so I don't have to worry about dealing with fail tanks. However, I have had some healers act as if this is lich king, and they can just stand there like a retard, not pay attention to any AoE/knockback/fire, and if we manage to die from taking the damage that they're NOT healing... all we get is 'i dont have time for this. srsly.' I'm In A BG/Questing/AFKing: Oh, my queue popped, but I'm AFK watching the longest movie ever so I can't waste my time by dropping my queue or actually leaving the group I joined instead of making you wait to kick me *Had those. They're FUN. :D That Guy: LOL U MAD? I know I'm bad, and I'm going to play bad! I'm not going to try, pay attention or listen to advice because I think it's hilarious to waste my own time and the time of others by playing awfully and trolling people the entire run. I'm too busy Skyping with some honeys, brah, so why don't you just do your job and get me my points / loot! *Yeah, because this is Wrath of the Faceroll: Part 2! No prob'm, bro, you just sit there with your cheetos and your endless supply of timeless wisdom, and we'll get you those lovely restoration shaman AGILITY trinkets you've been need rolling on for the past 45 minutes!Sorry the entire party died last pull. It was our fault, really. I guess our holy-spec'd rogue and the Restoration spec'd warrior just didn't have the Mp5 to power through the massive AoE damage you weren't healing. It's okay, we know that all those invisible riptides you were casting were critting for our entire health pools -- I guess we're just too FAIL for you. :< Because We Said So: Oh hey we're all friends / from a guild / whatever and we all queued together so that means we can kick you for doing things like asking about boss abilities, saying you haven't been here, telling us you have to go AFK real quick, or because we don't like the fact that you're a blood elf. Deal with it."We know that EPICHEALZORZ is being a raging $%^&*!bag, and yes we know that they're refusing to do their job, and we do feel bad that we've ninja'd every piece to drop thus far, to be divided amongst ourselves when we drop this group... But since this is OUR guild run, we'd just like to say:TOUGH CHEESE, HOMBRE,We own this here dungeon run."Honestly, right now it feels almost hopeless for people like myself and my guildies.. we're still gearing, still learning, and still trying our best. And yet in each run we're faced with either someone who has no idea what they're doing, and doesn't want to learn.. or someone who is in a hardcore raiding guild, already has at lest 8 epics, and therefore feels everyone is an inferior waste of time, unless they aren't able to faceroll content that -by design-,CANNOT. BE. FACEROLLED.
As a tank, these complaints sound like DPS QQ.I can't count how many times people don't listen, break CC, or pull before you do saying "faster!"So I tend to kick problem children that learned bad habits in WOTLK and expect it to take 20 min. I'd rather have undergeared than underperformers - everyone starts somewhere. Want this to go away? Make kicks/afks public rating. My fav is the mid boss healer leave move, or DP aoe pull after people are buffing after a fight pull.As for that 10-65 content, it's not that it is nicer people, it's that the content is nerfed to be manageable for 2-3 competent people.That's just it though...We're complaining about the same people you're complaining about.People either don't want to take the time to get the job done properly, or are wandering off into la-la land and refusing to actually make an effort at all.=/=DPS QQ.
I'm running into those situations in approx 7/10 runs. Maybe its just my bad luck but I dunno. But when encountering an idiot, why should I be the one to leave the dungeon and wait for however long, when I just wanted my points or a piece of loot. Blizzard really needs to make some sort of a karma system, or at least add a quick report button so I can report a player for being an !@#$%^& instead of writing a ticket and getting a "We'll get into it." response.
It is for this reason excactly why I rolled a Tank for guild run's, Pugging or even Guild Pugging. The attitude of Tanks when pugging LK content as a DPS just got unbearable, so in the end I rolled my own with the idea to be the most curtious Tank that i could beI buffed whatever people wanted, whenever people wanted even when they didnt want it..i explained the mobs or bosses for people who were unfimiliar with the mobs, waited for afk's and started casual chat, cracked jokes and asked people what they wanted to do, go fast, clean out or take it slow? And i never moved until the healer was ready! I found immediatly that the groups ran smoothly. People seemed to relax more and have fun and many times we would reque 3 or 4 dungeons in a row. But with the good also comes the bad and it seems that the latter is not limited to max lvl. I have also had Tanks who have rolled healers refuse to heal me because they have a max tank in full ICC gear (at the time) and know how a tank should tank. get in and get out! I have found as both a Tank and DPS this isnt always the case, not all players have this "FIGJAM" mentallity, at least not in my experience. So is the dungeon finder a good idea...Yes, but maybe a server only DF might encourage people to think again before queing and shooting their mouth off!
I haven't run into a lot of problems. But you can add another one:'Need to do a quest': Oh, I picked up this quest, but I conveniently forgot to tell you guys so I'm going to have a massive tantrum when we don't do the quest boss, even though I never said in the first place I was doing a quest.Seriously, people, if you're doing a quest, TELL THE GROUP. That way, the group know to do a particular boss or visit a particular area or help clear a particular type of trash mob. Although a general piece of advice - before you do a dungeon, go to the toilet, have something to eat, and have a drink. Don't wait until you need to, because it is heck of annoying when the tank suddenly has to go AFK to get food right before the big boss and then it gone for 15 minutes. (Although give concessions to people with pets - I have a cat and a dog, and they do have their random moments of 'I want to go outside and I don't care that you're busy'. Animals do not understand WoW.)
The thing that I think needs to be changed is the ability of people to queue as one role and yet Need roll on items for another role. I cannot tell you have many times I've sat the full 30 minute DPS queue, and then had an excellent physical DPS item taken from me by a Warrior or Paladin tank who claims that "DPS is my main spec, I only tank for shorter queues". It's not fair to those of us who have the patience to wait the queues for these tanks to need on both kinds of gear.I second that, and it shouldn't be hard a thing to implement, too. Items could be tagged for "healing" or "tanking" stats-wise, so if you're in as a tank you shouldn't be allowed to N-roll for that gorgeous two-hander sporting no avoidance stats. If the other party members agree, they could always let you get it through a G-roll by passing on it.
Don't wait until you need to, because it is heck of annoying when the tank suddenly has to go AFK to get food right before the big boss and then it gone for 15 minutes. (Although give concessions to people with pets - I have a cat and a dog, and they do have their random moments of 'I want to go outside and I don't care that you're busy'. Animals do not understand WoW.)Not to mention people "married with children", bear with them ;)Their impredictability brought me quickly out of raiding, early on WOTLK...
Ultimately, I think the monkey in the wrench of dungeon finder is it's inherent lack of variable option settings. Most, if not all, of the nightmare scenarios fall under one simple root cause: mindset variance. I'm not going to say any mindset is more correct or less correct than any other, because there's no accounting for taste or personality. Presently, dungeon finder takes precious little actual player specific information into account when forming the group. Actually, afaik, it only considers three things; basic gear score requirement met, player role selected, and the optional..uh...option of "I have experience with dungeon and can give helpful info to group members." Frankly, people go into dungeons for different reasons, and there's currently NO taking account of that, and when people get into groups with different reasons for being there, that's where trouble starts. A few examples: **An option for "I am so ridiculously overgeared, my hope and expectation when I press this button is to get four other uber geared folks so we can make big pulls, screw CC, fly through it, and farm points because anything that drops in here became worthless to me a long time ago." Hey, like it or not, this is a reason a good number of people are in dungeon finder. Personal profit. And to those people, it's nothing short of the sky falling when they realize that someone in the group is in quest greens and blues actually looking for gear, and that it's not going to go as fast as they hoped.**An option for "I am looking for one specific piece of gear off of one specific boss, and after that boss, I'm a ghost." Santa Hat farmers fall under this one.**An option for "I have very little, if any, experience and/or information about this dungeon besides word-of-mouth, but I want to learn by doing things slowly, methodically, and with strategic calculation that would make Gen. Patton proud." This player will most likely be successful at the dungeon..... in 4 hours.**An option for "I have made a specific choice to come to this dungeon to try to accomplish an achievement for ." Yes, yes, I can hear the crowd roaring, "Do that s#!@" with your guild." Fact is, sometimes, that's not a viable option for some good reasons.**An option for "I consider myself a casual player. I play 3-4 hours a week on a PvE server. I use the stock Blizz UI 5 action bars and tend to be a 'clicker.'" -or- "I play 14 hours a day on a PvP server. My screen is devoid of any action bars since I have my entire keyboard keybinding scheme memorized down to every last shift and alt modifier, and I have so much muscle memory, my fingers twitch in my sleep. I use a bazillion addons that require a masters degrees in Molecular Biology and Quantum Physics to understand." Look, I know the casual Vs. Elite debate has been beat to death, but let's face facts, there is some merit to it.I'm sure there are others, but you get the point. None of these things is inherently "wrong" by definition, but you can easily see how you start getting a collection of boo-boo lips and butt hurt people when you start mixing and matching these mindsets randomly. And when it happens, more often than not, it seems, there's a penalty system in place that ends up screwing over more people in the group than helping, and in the end, none of the group actually got the playing experience they wanted out of it. The whole time, player A was tolerating player B, and vice versa, player B was tolerating player A. Meanwhile, players C, D, and E were just trying to do their own thing while ignoring the back and forth between pulls of A and B. And after that dungeon, you've got five players, five real people sitting at keyboards, who are thinking, "I pay $15 a month, and that was not the experience I want to get out of my hard-earned real life money." That is, assuming that the group was able to complete the dungeon. Statistically, they didn't, and now you've got players with dungeon deserter debuffs, repair bills, and endless comments about "Noob this" and "Lawl @ bads that." I get it, Blizzard. You want us to practice tolerance, love, peace, understanding, communication, and end every dungeon with a great big Woodstock hug Kumbaya moment of glee and merriment. And that's awesome. *BUT*At the same time, there has to be some compromise. If you're going to set and tweak dungeons and heroics to require those things (Which, btw, is something I personally firmly support 100%) , then you should give us the tools to use dungeon finder to find people we actually want to do those things with. Last time I checked, neither being an elitist @#$%^& or a casual care bear was against the EULA. They both have the right to get what they consider a "fun, enjoyable, gaming experience" out of their monthly pay-to-play fee. And frankly, Blizzard, your attempts at trying to force people who, inherently, do not like each other to get along and play nice in the sandbox is a bit out of the scope of your responsibility. What's your next step, go to Washington and try to force Republicans and Democrats to see eye-to-eye? To end, I'll draw this analogy. (If you aren't familiar with the band in question, I feel I've provided enough context clues to convey the meaning anyhow.) Let's say you're the world's biggest Misfits fan, and you've just heard that, against all odds, after 20+ years, Danzig is rejoining the band and there's a reunion tour and there's a concert in your town. The problem is, the only merchant that sells tickets uses a completely blind and seemingly random selection process for what tickets you actually get, regardless of what tickets you really wanted. So, when you spend your money (i.e. monthly pay-to-play fee) and wait around X number of days for the tickets to arrive (i.e. time spent in random group que) and you find that you got tickets to Brooks and Dunn or Barney and Friends on Ice (i.e. the player who is the polar opposite mindset as you in group), you're going to be understandably disappointed. And so is that person that was really hoping for Brooks and Dunn, who is now at a Misfits show. I think we'd all agree that this hypothetical ticket seller wouldn't last long as a business, and rightfully so.
The kick feature is broken. You need to be able to kick anyone at any time, whether its the moment you enter the dungeon or even while in combat.I think 4 people can decide for themselves whether they want to play with someone. Blizz shouldn't force you to play with a person.
The kick feature is broken. You need to be able to kick anyone at any time, whether its the moment you enter the dungeon or even while in combat. I think 4 people can decide for themselves whether they want to play with someone. Blizz shouldn't force you to play with a person.Imagine being the 5th random pickup on a guildies premade party, and being insta-kicked after 35-40 mins queue just because "oh, you're a DK? we wanted a ranged, sorry", kick-vote and bye bye. More 40 mins wait.Does that look fair to you?... Reminds me of how "Democracy is dictatorship by the majority". Score.
I was in a PUG with a healer who won't heal or rez and end up kicking me just because I played a troll.
I do not bother using it any more. Last few times I used (4 of 7)there were either a couple of friends conspiring on the loot, a troll, and it is just not worth the que times. I will see the content when I have over levelled the dungeon by 10+. I cannot play often, and when I do play I do not have a lot of time. I am not interested in Tank or Healz. My que time is always going to be long, and given the really bad record the tool has had for me, why bother? I will never see an epic either........ I have to do dungeon runs for Mats for the craftable epics, but I only get epics 10 below my level..........I generally take this in stride, but yes there is definately and aspect of the game badly broken here...........
B-but your hair, it really isn't nice :<