You're looking at vengence wrong. Vengence turns HP into a threat stat. Better tank gear = more HP = more attack power from vengence.Good tanks held agro before vengence. In ICC after 4.0, no one could dream to catch our MTs on threat on single target fights after threat was established and vengence stacked. Avoidance has dropped tremendously now that mitigation is up (thanks to mastery). That means even if vengence is stacking slowly, it still wont drop. The only people who should be seeing problems with agro w/o vengence are bad tanks, groups with ballin dps, or a combination. Tricks/misdirect are tools to help tanks establish agro while they get their vengence rolling, but that was always the case, even before vengence came into the picture.
My last raids were H-ICC 25 so that's the model I'm going to use. Bosses hit so hard tanks didn't need to concern themselves with stacking vengence as quickly as they could.
The only thing I would really disagree with from GC's post (and my guess is he needs to do some Warrior tanking) is that we need (either as an add on or as an in-game interface) a tool to make targeting lose MOBS in multi-target pulls just a BIT easier. At least for this fail warrior, it occassional can be a challenge getting your camera JUST right (so you can observe the whole battle field) and then ensuring pixel accuracy to pick up the one MOB you don't get threat on during the initial pull before he one shots the clothie. SO often that is where the nerd rage against warrior tanks comes from. And even if it is their OWN damm fault for AOE nuking and pulling threat from these targets, most WOW'ers scream and the tanks feel completely stressed.In short - what I want is a list of targets and some flashing red light that warns me I got a lose one. Then shame on me if I can't get to it or find the right taunt/range attack weapon. Not sure if it is DBM or the game interface but I LOVE the "losing threat" warning I get when tanking multiple MOBS. Just want that at the start so I know the lose ones I have NO threat on and which will go awandering as soon as the clothies breath on em.Oh and just to correct GC. It isn't "THINGS" , it is "THING" where MOB/Add wipes happen that create group stress. If I am a fail tank who loses mutiple MOBS in the raid/Group, shame on me and I will take my lumps. If I get 5 but miss the 6th who is a few pixels out of TC range when I start and he goes off in and one shots the healer than it just creates "unfun" @#$%^ing ("Fail tank"; "watch your threat"; "Count to 3 before you do something"; "Where was the CC?"; "Go learn your toon": "I hate Pugs".) I should "know" quickly and without having to accurately click a pixel in a cluttered screen that my initial pull failed to get them all and I got a lose one I need to get back under control.Not to highjack but such a tool would also make INTERVENE precisely the fun and interesting skill it SHOULD be.....as you see you have a problem, click intervene, and go running across the room to save the clothie moments before he is going to get wacked.
I'm loving this.1) Nice to see the devs really DO understand what tanking should be and what we as players want it to be. I quit tanking toward the end of BC and put my warrior on the shelf. I got sick and bloody tired of everyone wanting to be lazy. I actually had one person in my guild say, "I want an AOE tank so I can hit multishot." Nevermind that a warrior tank that even the best rogue in the guild/on the server could not outthreat got them to BT. And then came WotLK which birthed bad, lazy players and turned some other good ones into bad, lazy players. AOE-fest did not make this game better.2) DPS classes do not need threat reduction capabilities beyond what they already have (ice block, feign death, cower, etc). Many DPS just need to learn to play their classes PROPERLY. I'm loving how Cata is trying to get things back to normal. Use strategy, crowd control, let your tank get some threat before you start DPSing. Heals and tanks aren't your slaves, DPS. Don't treat them like one. Work WITH them. Remember, it's a heck of a lot easier to get another dps than it is to get another skilled healer or tank.3) For that matter, some tanks also need to understand that the game is no longer an AOE-fest. Had a paladin tank run into a stack of 7 mobs the other night, on purpose, and yelled at ME (resto druid) because he died. Because, apparently, I should be able to cast everything I have fast enough, and have enough mana to, when he does something stupid. Sorry, but I can't cast that fast, especially when I get aggro because a Healing Touch on you drew threat. This isn't a game mechanic problem, though. This is an idiot player problem (he tried to tell me I didn't know how to play a resto druid because I was using my HoTs instead of just spamming Healing Touch). Contrarily, I ran with an awesome paladin tank last night, and two AMAZING warrior tanks in different PUGs. It's almost like warrior tanks are starting to not suck again... ALMOST makes me want to take mine off the shelf and level her up. The warriors and good paladin I ran with had some amazing mitigation. Made my healer life easy peasy.All in all, I think people just need to stop being lazy. Tanks don't need more TPS. I think they just need DPS to give them a few GCDs (like in the old pre-WotLK days) to establish threat. DPS needs to focus fire and crowd control. Heals need to realize they need to find out what's most mana efficient for them while still keeping the party alive. It's like a puzzle, almost, and it's more fun this way.Cata is looking like it's trying to fix what WotLK broke. And what WotlK broke ... broke badly. I couldn't be happier with instances getting back to the way they should be.And what's wrong with trap launcher? I love it.