Time to stack lots of Block :PToo bad druids cant use their Bloody Bear Paw to block.I use my face.
While druids and DKs don't have shields, they do have a natural ****ton of HP. It'll balance out. This isn't the end of "evasion tanks"
While druids and DKs don't have shields, they do have a natural ****ton of HP. It'll balance out. This isn't the end of "evasion tanks"All tanks in general were rounded off with health. A Bear will have ~50k health in Tier 9 gear (iirc), meanwihle a Paladin will have 45k. That 5k difference isn't going to make that big of a difference overall. They tried to balance tanks so that any tank could be used in any encounter, effectievely homogenizing that aspect of the raid and ultimately forgetting that Paladins/Warriors are better at mitigating damage and DKs/Druids are better at soaking.
Icewell Radiance.....woot!as long as it doesn't cause the Ice Stone to melt.... >.>
I use my face.Does Chipped Bear Tooth belong to you?
While druids and DKs don't have shields, they do have a natural ****ton of HP. It'll balance out. This isn't the end of "evasion tanks"Death Knights: 6%, 2%, (3%).Paladins: 8%, 6%Druids: 10%, 25%Both 258 Tier set of paladins and DK's have the same amount of Stamina (922), where druids "only" gain 687 stamina from their 258 Tier setCare to tell me where this natural ****ton of HP to DK's come from? :)Druids may have higher health, but the amount isn't exactly amazing anymore.@Death Knights Threat values:I've decided to do some napkin math to get a rough idea of how much Chill of the Throne will impact our threat. I'm too lazy to see if there's parses for actual Icecrown bosses, so I've applied the -20% dodge modifier to data from a Jaraxxus parse I had, as this fight is pretty much straight tanking with no quirky mechanics from a MT perspective. If my reasoning or math is wrong please feel free to correct it/mock me.Even though I am a blood spec in this parse, for simplicity I'm only considering threat from damage done and not from any self-healing through deathstrike.Damage/threat breakdown, split into runestrike, as this is what we're interested in, and everything else.Damage from runestrike: 170743 dmg, from 32 hitsDamage from everything else: 714273 dmgThreat from runestrike: 170743 x 1.5 (runestrike modifier) x 2.0735 (frost pres.) ~= 521053 threat, with a mean of 16282.9 threat per runestrike.Threat from everything else: 714273 x 2.0735 (frost pres.) ~= 1481045 threatSo a total threat of 2002098, over a fight duration of 304 seconds gives approx. 6586 TPS, with 35.8% of the total threat coming from runestrike.During this fight Jaraxxus melees at me 86 times with 56 hits being avoided.Avoidance breakdown into dodge and parry, as these proc runestrike.Dodged: 32 hitsParried: 15 hitsThus, off the runestrike procs, 32/47 = 68.1% of them should have procced from dodges.Also, runestrike was procced 47 times but only 32 actually got off due to overlap between my swing timer and the boss'. So we assume that only approx. 68% of avoided hits will translate into actual runestrikes.Now let's apply the Icecrown -20% dodge modifier.My dodge % for that fight was roughly 37.2%, making it 17.2% in Icecrown.So my dodged hits in Icecrown are now 86 x 0.172 = 14.79, so approx. 15.Assuming parries stay the same, I now proc runestrike 30 times. But not all avoided hits will translate to runestrikes, so we have to modify that by 68%. Thus, 30 x 0.68 = 20.4, so approx. 20 actual runestrikes will hit.Multiply that by the average of 16282.9 threat per runestrike, and you get 325658 total threat from runestrike.So total threat with the -20% dodge modifier is, 325658 threat + 1481045 threat = 1806703 threat, over 304 seconds is 5943.1 TPS. From this example this is about a 10% reduction in TPS relative to the scenario without Icecrown radiance.So this change does not seem like it is as huge a reduction in threat as I initially thought it would be. However, depending on the encounters in Icecrown, a roughly 10% drop in threat may be significant enough for DK tanks to worry about their tanking spots.http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-sunos_fireside_chat_dk_endgame_tanking_updated/p81/#post1442460
Druid tank's lives are gonna be hard since they only have dodge... no parry, block, none of that
mmm not looking forward to this...but the chances of me tanking anything in icecrown are unlikely.
A very lazy solution, is this the best they can come up with?What about a reverse form parry-haste? partial damage avoidance? Static chance to avoid in stead of pure rng?Nah lets just lower 1 of 4 kinds of avoidance and hope it all balances out. They just boosted parry to be equal as dodge so why they change it again, didn't they see that comming? (2.4 anyone?)I always disliked tanks who think tanking is about getting as much hp as possible, now blizzard actually changing the game mechanics to let them be right.23 toughts still; what about a rogue popping evasion getting screwed when he has some add on him?and what about the dodge-gem market?is it possible from a paladin/warrior perspective to actually screw dodge, focus on parry/block gear-wise and don't even bother to take the +5% dodge talents up?
Assuming your dodge is already over 20% a dodge gem would be just as valuable and assuming a druids dodge is equivalent to a warrior/pally/DK 's dodge plus parry the hit would still be the same mitigation wise.60% dodge - 20% = 40% avoidance35% dodge + 19% parry +6% chance to be missed - 20% dodge = 40% avoidanceI can't imagine tanks having less then 20% dodge at ICC level meaning after DR stacking only parry or dodge would still fail.Between DK's I could see this as a straight up 20% damage increase, however with a chance to block on warriors and Paladins being added to the table, and savage defense knocking off more damage on hit (possibly making crit and ap even more valuable) it could give them a slight edge.(So assuming you start over 20% dodge when ICC hits dodge will be just as valuable as before, however, current block and crit/ap will have a higher value, and at a dodge rate of less then 20% dodge will become useless until it reaches that point)Isolating just these factors it seems that this will hit DKs hardest with a 10% threat loss and mitigation lossIf I'm missing any variables copy-paste mine and add the corrections.
It's not a big deal guys. I really do hope this doesn't spread FUD about druids and DKs now being gimped tanks.It's quite an easy thing to work around. For starters, half the job is already being done on Blizzard's end - they're softening the blows knowing fully well now that a lot more are going to land. For the rest, well druids for example can just focus more now on stacking stamina.DKs can focus more on Strength (possible?) to make up for the lost TPS and return a bit more avoidance via Parry.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street mentioned the avoidance issue in another post today, noting that "the Cataclysm design will keep tank avoidance at more manageable levels."They fed us that exact line with Sunwell Radiance. It seems that they screwed up the Diminishing Returns.Besides, I thought every tank was stacking Stamina right now, because there's so much stuff in ToC that's classed as unavoidable damage (Impales, etc.).
Druids: 10%, 25%Don't forget another 2% and another 6%
As a druid tank I'm all for that change and it's implications.By the way, do you know any tank of any class and spec that has 20% dodge or lower raid buffed? I do not!This means that every tank will lose 20% avoidance.I predict that this will provide us with bosses that are more fun to heal.
ICC was originally intended to have ilvl245 gear dropping on 25man. With the introduction of hardmodes, that scale went out of control and they have to compensate by this.
This is a tank buff, imo. I'd gladly give up 20% of my avoidance if it meant I wasn't taking 45% to 55% of my health every time I did get hit.Before anyone comments on the subject, you should read ALL of the blue posts on the matter. Just looking at it and saying "They are taking away 20% dodge! Stop nerfing me!" shows me that you don't understand the situation.
when i first saw this news i thought...wow druids tanks will be as strong as ever now! and then i read 2pages of qqing about R.I.P. druids...lets see...they're gonna lower avoidance by 20%, so we assume they want more sustained damage and less spiky damage...lets assume they're gonna nerf boss damage by 20% with a net result in same damage on tank over a long time...druids high armor and HP will help healers A LOT more than pallies/warriors RNG mitigation cause we all knows bad string happens.Also 20% less boss damage means that Block and SavageDefense will absorb MORE % damage giving another bonus to Druids (and ofc pallies and warrs but we're talking about druids now)So after all i cant see where this Icecrown Aura is so bad for druid tanks.ps: i didnt talk about DKs in this post cause i dont know anything about their tanking mechanics, probably they'll have a little hurt cause they wont benefit from the decreased boss damage so much (no static absorbtion as block or SD) but i dont know really :)any thought is appreciated hi allpps: also this change will force healers to be more stressed on mana and less on haste/spellpower, welcome back /rw FFS I?M OOM TOTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEM
What the **** you mean "Why Blizzard would do such a thing?" It's the hardest raid of Wotlk and it isn't supposted to be easy DEAL WITH IT.
Druids are probably the least affected by the change, since they will now make more use of savage defence, combined with their naturally higher health pool and armor...if the bosses will be hitting a little softer, they should fare quite well indeed.Warriors and DKs will see threat loss due to less revenge and rune strike procs, so I would assume a little help might be in order for those. Paladins aren't really affected too much since it's easy for them to convert to block-tanking for EHP, thanks to holy shield and redoubt. Warriors can do this to a lesser extent as well.Seems DK tanks may be getting the short end of the stick here (again), but we'll see.
It doesn't effect one tank class more than any other. EVERY class is losing 20% dodge.If you have a Warrior with 30% Dodge and 20% parry, and a druid with 50% dodge, a pally with 28% Dodge, 22% Parry, and a DK with 25% dodge and 25% Parry what happens....The all start out with 50% avoidance and they all end up with 30%.