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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
Squishalot
He didn't know what the book would end up as when he created that starting scenario.
This is, by definition, not all-knowing.
As laid out above, if the omniscience is infallible and if the god is the prime mover then what follows can not be free will.
I've already said: The concept of omniscience has only ever been ascribed to our universe (i.e. the finished book). God knows everything that happens in the book, because he's read it. That's all the omniscience he has been credited for. There is no strict timeline involved, and it's been stated that God exists outside of 'time' within our universe.
You're putting too much emphasis on the concept of 'all-knowing' within the structure of what you understand it to mean in a different context.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
asakawa
So the Christian god isn't omniscient? I understand that you're trying to engineer a situation where that label isn't required without undermining the Biblical lines that state the god is all-knowing. But in whatever scope you want to place them, they either are all-knowing or they aren't. I'm fine with either but you can't have both.
You're painting a picture of a god that has fallen asleep at the wheel, all knowing but barely caring and that doesn't make me feel much more comfortable than one who allows for no free will. Meanwhile they are outside time but have clear peaks and troughs in their behaviour over our time which wouldn't make sense outside it.
Essentially you're creating a complex assumption to engineer your way around a problem which is generally bad form I'd've thought.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Squishalot
The Christian God knows everything in our universe. As far as we're concerned, for anything that impacts us, he's all-knowing. Is that not enough?
And I'm not creating a complex assumption - the concept of him being outside time is a Biblical one, not me trying to craft a solution.
Post by
asakawa
It doesn't really feel enough tbh. Do we want to worship a being who is an omniscient god from our own point of view but a lab assistant in their own scope?
Post by
Monday
Or He could be so intelligent that He's like a chess player that can see every move imaginable. He knows what move you are most likely to make, but it's entirely possible to make one that wasn't the most obvious. That's no problem, though, since He knows all the potential outcomes of that.
In essence, He knows every possible outcome of the universe that could occur (infinitely many), but it's up to the individual to choose their own path.
If that made any sense.
As I said originally, "original sin" is a concept that makes me incredibly uneasy - that's the point I'm trying to make.
My religion believes that the Original Sin was washed clean at the Atonement.
Also, Skree, all of your points seem to come from a misunderstanding of the purpose of the Tree. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the Tree, they would still be immortal, living in the Garden of Eden, and the rest of us wouldn't exist. With the knowledge of Good and Evil came the knowledge of procreation.
They needed to be removed from the Garden to populate the earth, and couldn't do so until they had partaken of the Fruit. That allowed them to populate the earth and paved the way for the Atonement of Christ, which brought with it the possibility of forgiveness from all sins (beyond denying Christ after
knowing
that he exists) which brought with it the possibility for us to improve ourselves and return to Him.
Post by
asakawa
My religion believes that the Original Sin was washed clean at the Atonement.
That's interesting, I didn't know that.
(beyond denying Christ after
knowing
that he exists)
Do you mind if I ask what "with perfect knowledge" means or refers to in that context?
Post by
Skreeran
Also, Skree, all of your points seem to come from a misunderstanding of the purpose of the Tree. If Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the Tree, they would still be immortal, living in the Garden of Eden, and the rest of us wouldn't exist. With the knowledge of Good and Evil came the knowledge of procreation.
I don't know enough about your doctrine to argue it there, but I know that's not in the Bible.
Post by
Monday
Do you mind if I ask what "with perfect knowledge" means or refers to in that context?
Some people claim to
know
that God exists, but that's false. They just believe really deeply.
However, in the case of people such as Moses, Joseph Smith, Adam, etc, they all
knew
that God exists. They talked with Him, and in some cases, saw Him with their own eyes.
For example:
And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
If they had seen Him, and worked His wonders, but then denied Him, they would be cast into Outer Darkness as Sons of Perdition (of whom Cain was the first).
Post by
b4xx
I don't, like, demand responses to this or anything - it's entirely possible that it's really only me who finds this point interesting - but the idea of responsibility is often complicated in religion and I don't really want this line of discussion to get lost amongst others.
I hope MyTie won't mind me paraphrasing a point he made recently in a thread about racism (that I agree with) where he said that otherwise innocent, modern-day white people shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of white racists and slave-owners of years past. Is original sin not a comparable problem?
I have trouble putting this clearly, since English isn't my mother tongue, and it's a very delicate subject. Also, I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but to put it bluntly, sin is being estranged from God.
Now, I think that these are not comparable problems, since God doesn't hold us accountable for Adam's and Eve's actions. We are the product of their fall from the paradise. It's like - it's like they turned us into a different species: One that can feel pain, one that can procreate, one that can do evil.
I'm on very thin ice here, but what I'm trying to say is that we're a kind of a byproduct. God still loves us, but He knows that we're flawed. It's not like we're haunted by the acts of our ancestors; the flaws are still there. Humans are still carrying on what Adam and Eve started, and essentially losing touch with God.
That's why we needed the new pact with God through Jesus.
I hope that is a response satisfying enough, my linguistic skills are really being stretched to their limits and I don't think I can put this more clearly.
Also, like I answered back on page 2, I'm not a Christian. This is just my understanding on how people understand these things and concepts.
Post by
Skreeran
@MyTie
I don't want to bog down the feminism thread with religious debate, but I couldn't let this rest.
Here MyTie explains that he is completely sinless, and thus in a position to pass judgment on others.
I didn't say that at all. If you want to troll, you can do it alone, if you want to discuss the implications of public decency, then I'm game. You choose.Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written: "As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
"And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
I say to you, MyTie: You are exalting yourself, declaring yourself justified. I checked in the mirror. I'm dressed appropriately, and modestly. Therefore, I'm going to go ahead and use that modest dress judgment and tell people to cover up, since it would not be hypocritical of me.You are judging others on their deficiencies, but I guarantee that you yourself are deficient in some area. You are the pharisee here, saying "Look at that woman. Look at how immodestly she dresses. It is good I am not a sinner like her."
Let your god do the judging, and maybe try to remember why there is a Christ in Christian.
Post by
MyTie
The New Testament is full of people who were imperfect, who passed judgement onto their fellow Christians and the world. Paul is a GREAT example of someone with a terrible terrible past, who was a profound leader, and source of reproof. The notion that in order to correct people, one must be absolutely perfect, is flawed. I'm not out stoning anyone. I'm not saying "You X are wrong". I'm saying that a specific action (immodest dress) is wrong. And I'm not making that rule up, it's in the Bible. In essence, I'm repeating what God said, and God was perfect.
Post by
Gone
I would rather the topic being discussed in the feminism thread not be associated with religion, because frankly MyTie, you're making Christians look like every bit the negative stereotype that certain anti religious people play them out to be today.
I'm a Christian myself, but I don't think that dressing with a low cut shirt or a short skirt is morally wrong. If you do then that's your right and I respect that, but it shouldn't be brought up in judgement of others, that's God's job not yours. And it especially shouldn't be brought up in reference to the victim of a violent or sexual crime.
Post by
MyTie
I would rather the topic being discussed in the feminism thread not be associated with religion, because frankly MyTie, you're making Christians look like every bit the negative stereotype that certain anti religious people play them out to be today.
I'm a Christian myself, but I don't think that dressing with a low cut shirt or a short skirt is morally wrong. If you do then that's your right and I respect that, but it shouldn't be brought up in judgement of others, that's God's job not yours. And it especially shouldn't be brought up in reference to the victim of a violent or sexual crime.
Well, I appreciate our difference in opinions. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I disagree, though.
Post by
Orranis
If there is a being who knows the
entire
future
infallibly
, then no human act is free.
See that's the problem: Christian philosophy does not agree with that assumption. It's not something they all have an easy time doing, but it is still an assumption that foreknowledge renders free-will nonexistent.Question 1: Can you explain how free will can be compatible with omniscience?
I think it boils down to 'you have choices but your decisions are already known.' It's weirder when you consider that God made them, but in abstract is on some level believable.
Question 2: Out of simple curiosity, are you just playing the devil's advocate, or did find Jesus when I wasn't looking? :P
Playing the
Devil
Lord's advocate.
Post by
dwaynesmith
Yes, I always believe in God!
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
And why the hell do I need to love/worship god to not die?
Because He says so, and he has the power to do that. If somebody doesn't believe in God then I disagree with their belief, but I understand it. The *!@# you have been whining about for two weeks now is just childish though. You sound like a whiney little kid who throws a fit when his parents tell him do something that he thinks is unfair. Stop trying to apply human logic and morality to God.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Stop trying to apply human logic and morality to God.
Why shouldn't I? He's a person, just a big and powerful one.
No, It's not. God is above mortals and that's a very simple fact.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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